A splendid video about evolution

There’s nothing suspect about the existence of fractional charges. The spin of an electron happens to of magnitude h/2 where h is Planck’s reduced constant - something that’s verifiable in high school experiments.

What I actually did was to point out what a momentous discovery free quarks would be! The problem is they don't seem to exist!

Wouldn't it be a bit more honest if everyone discussing quarks admitted that these have never been seen on their own?

So why shouldn’t fractional coloumbs exists? I’m not impressed by your arguments for science denialism which I find very harmful. (and misguided - why don’t you just flatly state that you think we live in one big conspiracy?)

I have nothing against fractionally charged particles if they can be made and studied in some way. I'd have loved these things to exist back in the time when I did chemistry. I mean if you absorb a quark into a chunk of matter, it can't be destroyed until it meets up with at least one other quark because of charge conservation. Even if several quarks were to exist in a chunk of matter, they would last some time until they met and combined. The change to the spectrum of hydrogen (say) would be quite interesting to calculate - but as it is physicists have a wonderful theory that rules out the existence of these particles, but allows theories to flourish which are couched in a way that pretends they do exist!

It just doesn't seem an honest way to do science.



I am maybe a bit more cautious about some of these discoveries than you are. One of the problems is that modern mathematical theories can be very elaborate and I therefore think there is a serious chance of one of these theories matching some data by pure chance.

David

There’s nothing suspect about the existence of fractional charges.

We should be suspect if a particle has never actually been observed, and seems to only exist to make otherwise broken mathematics function. It's a bit like epicycles ~ it technically makes correct predictions, but is fundamentally broken as a theory.

The spin of an electron happens to of magnitude h/2 where h is Planck’s reduced constant - something that’s verifiable in high school experiments. So why shouldn’t fractional coloumbs exists? I’m not impressed by your arguments for science denialism which I find very harmful. (and misguided - why don’t you just flatly state that you think we live in one big conspiracy?)

Now, this is just a strawman. Has David ever implied or stated such a thing? Just because we can be critical of a few aspects of a particular field of science does not mean that we are suddenly denying all of science or the scientific method itself, nor does it suddenly mean we believe everything is corrupt.

Physics genuinely has some uncomfortable issues plaguing it that are outright ignored, downplayed or dismissed.

Physicists of the late 19th century were arrogantly convinced that they had solved physics! Everyone could go home, and stop doing science! This was during Newton's era, before Einstein demonstrated just how wrong and arrogant they were.

So, you see... Planck was pretty correct ~ science doesn't progress through current generations of scientists being convinced of a superior hypothesis ~ it progresses one funeral at a time, as new scientists come in who side more with the new hypothesis than not.

@sbu Sbu,

Don't you come across children and adults who have learned about quarks (and gluons) and assume they are directly observable? If they ask you for more details, don't you feel the tiniest twinge of discomfort, explaining that these particles can't actually be produced as such?

David

@sbu Sbu,

Don't you come across children and adults who have learned about quarks (and gluons) and assume they are directly observable? If they ask you for more details, don't you feel the tiniest twinge of discomfort, explaining that these particles can't actually be produced as such?

David

I’ve never met anyone, child or adult, who has given the existence of quarks the slightest consideration, nor do I think the question is at all relevant to the usual topics on these forums. Quantum chromodynamics is apparently successful (I know nothing about it) at predicting fundamental properties, like the proton’s spin, which is essential for MRI imaging as well as other key features of protons and neutrons. I therefore see no reason to doubt this particular branch of physics.

On the other hand, I’m deeply uncomfortable with how forums like PsienceQuest constantly exaggerate the frequency and significance of phenomena such as near-death experiences and terminal lucidity, phenomena that largely vanish under rigorous scrutiny, as seen in the AWARE studies. I often wonder whether the NDE movement is collectively attempting to launch a new religion to fill the void left by Christianity. Existential dread can’t go unanswered, and nowadays traditional religion has lost its appeal for many.

I’ve never met anyone, child or adult, who has given the existence of quarks the slightest consideration, nor do I think the question is at all relevant to the usual topics on these forums. Quantum chromodynamics is apparently successful (I know nothing about it) at predicting fundamental properties, like the proton’s spin, which is essential for MRI imaging as well as other key features of protons and neutrons. I therefore see no reason to doubt this particular branch of physics.

So you would rather just blindly believe in a particle whose existence has never been confirmed? I suppose you would never question epicycles, either, if you lived in that time, because it did so well at predicting the movements of the heavens... nevermind it was fundamentally incorrect.

Just because something appears successful does not make it the reality. Science is not about stagnation ~ just sitting on some theory or hypothesis because it appears correct from a shallow analysis ~ science is about progression ~ challenging theories and hypotheses to make sure they're still stable and functional in the light of new information that we weren't aware of prior.

Materialism and Physicalism prefer stagnation, however, because they are a priori convinced that the world is material and physical, and per Materialist and Physicalist ideology, must work this way, and no other. So science gets rerouted into blindly running down the dead-end alley of Materialism and Physicalism, and so just remains stuck. Nevertheless, Materialists and Physicalists assert that the answers are just around the corner! (For a couple centuries now!)

On the other hand, I’m deeply uncomfortable with how forums like PsienceQuest constantly exaggerate the frequency and significance of phenomena such as near-death experiences and terminal lucidity, phenomena that largely vanish under rigorous scrutiny, as seen in the AWARE studies.

Near-death experiences and terminal lucidity do not "largely vanish" under "rigorous scrutiny" ~ they get ignored, dismissed, ridiculed and downplayed by Materialist and Physicalist ideologues whose ideology's needs require them to be, to protect their ideologies from criticism and getting just torn apart. They need the allure of scientific authority to maintain a mask of "knowing the answers".

I often wonder whether the NDE movement is collectively attempting to launch a new religion to fill the void left by Christianity. Existential dread can’t go unanswered, and nowadays traditional religion has lost its appeal for many.

Ah, this convenient strawman. Reincarnation and NDEs aren't exactly a new phenomena ~ they have been observed by many cultures throughout history, and have been confirmed many times, independently. It has nothing to do with "existential dread" ~ and everything to do with that these phenomena just happen time and again, and these many cultures just accepted it, because they weren't blinded by mass monolithic religions like Christianity, Islam or Judaism that either deny the contents of reincarnation memories or NDE experience reports, or hijack them to push nonsense that will get them converts.

On the other hand, I’m deeply uncomfortable with how forums like PsienceQuest constantly exaggerate the frequency and significance of phenomena such as near-death experiences and terminal lucidity, phenomena that largely vanish under rigorous scrutiny, as seen in the AWARE studies. I often wonder whether the NDE movement is collectively attempting to launch a new religion to fill the void left by Christianity. Existential dread can’t go unanswered, and nowadays traditional religion has lost its appeal for many.

Examples of constant exaggeration?

How does AWARE make a phenomena largely vanish?

Existential dread can’t go unanswered, and nowadays traditional religion has lost its appeal for many.

"Existential dread" is a pejorative phrase, aiming not to investigate phenomena but instead to demean those who report them.

"Existential dread" is a pejorative phrase, aiming not to investigate phenomena but instead to demean those who report them.

That wasn’t my intended message. I fully support a thorough investigation and have no wish to demean anyone.

I’ve never met anyone, child or adult, who has given the existence of quarks the slightest consideration, nor do I think the question is at all relevant to the usual topics on these forums. Quantum chromodynamics is apparently successful (I know nothing about it) at predicting fundamental properties, like the proton’s spin, which is essential for MRI imaging as well as other key features of protons and neutrons. I therefore see no reason to doubt this particular branch of physics.

Well, I guess you never met anyone like me! I remember reading about electrons that were very light and orbited an atomic nucleus composed of much heavier particles that held almost all of the mass (I called it weight back then) of the material. I remember discovering that the man who had come to repair the vacuum cleaner knew something about the subject, and I delayed him for some time discussing it all - obviously without any equations. I assume you have a similar science background, I thought you would also have such fond childhood memories.

If the quark theory had been around back then (late 1950's) I am damn sure I would have wanted to know about that too!

I'm also damn sure that if I had later learned that truth - that quarks don't really exist - I'd have felt quite betrayed.

However, perhaps I was just weird.

More generally, I think science used to have a wonderful aura of truth, but that is tarnished nowadays by too many incidents of scientific half-truth or sheer scientific falsehood passing into 'common knowledge'.

On the other hand, I’m deeply uncomfortable with how forums like PsienceQuest constantly exaggerate the frequency and significance of phenomena such as near-death experiences and terminal lucidity, phenomena that largely vanish under rigorous scrutiny, as seen in the AWARE studies. I often wonder whether the NDE movement is collectively attempting to launch a new religion to fill the void left by Christianity. Existential dread can’t go unanswered, and nowadays traditional religion has lost its appeal for many.

The only reason NDE's seemed to vanish under 'rigorous scrutiny', was that the phenomenon drowned under demands for ever more extreme proofs. The fact that many people report having had NDE's, and that many (but not all) of these happen in hospital, so that the experiencer can often recount all sorts of details of the resuscitation procedure was not sufficient evidence.

David

Examples of constant exaggeration?

How does AWARE make a phenomena largely vanish?

The author I had in mind with that point has been quite recently. It was neither you or David I insinuating at.

The AWARE study showed that out-of-body experiences in cardiac arrest survivors, especially ones that can later be corroborated by witnesses are far too rare to measure reliably (if such phenomena even exist outside of the spiritual self-help bestsellers on Amazon).