(2023-12-30, 04:24 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: If the spiritual learning experience hypothesis is rejected as not explaining the observed demographics, then does that mean it is also rejected as the central reason for the NDE phenomenon in the first place? What does that leave, then - some more materialistic theory? Unintended unplanned glitches in the design of our world that allow occasional mistakes to occur where humans are given unintended glimpses of the states that will precede death? Or even a vast deception being perpetrated for unknown reasons? The existence of a small but significant class of negative or even hellish NDEs also figures into this of course.
I think you hit the nail on the head really. The more we head into the realm of spiritualistic reasoning the more we abandon data and fall back on wild ideas that we can use to fit any kind of explanation. If we just look at what we have on hand then yes, NDEs very much appear like wild, random moments that are given to people like throwing darts at a board blind. Physicalism is not a useless endeavor and has revealed the universe to be wild, random, uncaring place with potentially no grand narrator at its core given purpose exclusively by the people that live in it. If NDEs are a glimpse into a spiritual realm, one that actually exists, why would it be any different than the physical realm it exists alongside?
(2024-01-02, 01:48 PM)Smaw Wrote: Physicalism is not a useless endeavor and has revealed the universe to be wild, random, uncaring place with potentially no grand narrator at its core given purpose exclusively by the people that live in it.
Not sure if you were being at all tongue in cheek here, but in case you weren't..... this was hyperbolic.
Physicalism hasn't revealed anything as it relates to morality, ethics, meaning, etc. as yet. Its overreach to suggest otherwise. Its adherents are often all too happy to suggest such things, but the actual science/evidence behind this particular 'ism' doesn't support such statements.
(2024-01-02, 03:05 PM)Silence Wrote: Not sure if you were being at all tongue in cheek here, but in case you weren't..... this was hyperbolic.
Physicalism hasn't revealed anything as it relates to morality, ethics, meaning, etc. as yet. Its overreach to suggest otherwise. Its adherents are often all too happy to suggest such things, but the actual science/evidence behind this particular 'ism' doesn't support such statements.
Yeah, especially when you note varied scientists such as Isaac Newton and the "Quantum Fathers" were at the very least open to questioning Physicalism if not outright rejecting it.
The Scientific Method, OTOH, has yielded a great many fruits...though arguably has also woven a web of entrapment that might, for varied reasons, be a Great Filter of our own making...
“The release of atomic power has changed everything except our way of thinking ... the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker.”
― Albert Einstein
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(This post was last modified: 2024-01-02, 05:39 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
(2024-01-02, 01:48 PM)Smaw Wrote: I think you hit the nail on the head really. The more we head into the realm of spiritualistic reasoning the more we abandon data and fall back on wild ideas that we can use to fit any kind of explanation. If we just look at what we have on hand then yes, NDEs very much appear like wild, random moments that are given to people like throwing darts at a board blind. Physicalism is not a useless endeavor and has revealed the universe to be wild, random, uncaring place with potentially no grand narrator at its core given purpose exclusively by the people that live in it. If NDEs are a glimpse into a spiritual realm, one that actually exists, why would it be any different than the physical realm it exists alongside?
Not sure about this "physical realm" you speak of but yes I support Survival but reject that the evidence points to any clear order in the afterlife....if anything it's the opposite...
We do need to make a distinction between Survival as a possibility and the more flowery pictures that, IMO, cherry pick cases. This isn't to say the Gnostic-type interpretations are right either, rather we seem to have heroes and villains in the afterlife as much as this one.
“There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilisations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendours.”
-CS Lewis
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(This post was last modified: 2024-01-02, 05:46 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
I suspect that in the time of Giordano Bruno very few NDE's were reported in the West! More generally, NDE's are deeply subversive to all religions, and in places where subverting religion is not tolerated, they will not be reported.
Thank goodness that in this respect at least the US and UK are both tolerant of religious dissent!
David
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(2024-01-02, 08:44 PM)David001 Wrote: I suspect that in the time of Giordano Bruno very few NDE's were reported in the West! More generally, NDE's are deeply subversive to all religions, and in places where subverting religion is not tolerated, they will not be reported.
Thank goodness that in this respect at least the US and UK are both tolerant of religious dissent!
David
Yeah if the supposed skeptics - really atheist-materialist fundamentalists - reflected they'd see the Survival evidence challenges religious orthodoxy, but like all fanatics their reason is hampered.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2024-01-02, 01:48 PM)Smaw Wrote: Physicalism is not a useless endeavor and has revealed the universe to be wild, random, uncaring place with potentially no grand narrator at its core given purpose exclusively by the people that live in it.
I would not expect a "wild, random, uncaring place" to produce anybody - certainly nobody who could behave in a caring, loving way. The really weak point about physicalism is to explain why anybody turns out decent, and how it is that we all recognise what being decent is all about.
David
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