A Divine quote?

As I  see it, what ever we form opinions on regarding survival we ought to consider the complete body of evidence, as far as possible to patch a picture together.

The "unjustness" (which presupposes that I am perfect and other people aren't) fits the biblical narrative that says all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory and it is only by God's mercy that some will be saved and not because they deserve it.  However, I don't believe there is a hell - it seems to me this heaven and hell stuff in relation to NDEs is more about somebody's expectations than about any external reality and churchianity has had a profound effect on the psyches even of unbelievers.

Ah the "Wait" was an expression of surprise, not suspicion. Sorry if it seemed offensive wasn't my intent.

I've read about hellish NDEs but I'd never gotten the impression that they suggested damnation could just be random. I think I just misread your post as that doesn't seem to be what you're saying either.

"but I'd never gotten the impression that they suggested damnation could just be random."

No worries. And I don't think anybody really knows, Sci. I've spoken to some people that have died (cardiac arrest). Two of them mentioned something about a place they caught a glimpse of that looked unpleasant but didn't really want to talk about it.

It was difficult enough trying to get a picture/information about the other very nice place they visited. It usually ended in frustration, more for them than me. I don't think it's something that can be described and I don't want to have thoughts about what might await me (and all of us) lest I end up in the pit myself.  Right now, I'd take the middle place (P) there's probably a bar there while you wait.

Generally speaking I would say the quote is both true and false. true because if you had full understanding of why someone did something then you could understand why they did it from their perspective and it would at least make sense. However, someone could genuinely believe in something they're doing,\ and yet that thing could still be completely self contradictory, hypocritical, and narcissistic. Which is the only basis that I'd use to judge any sort of "good" or "evil" on, as no objective form could exist.

For example, some religious zealot could genuinely believe that killing some other group was a morally good thing to do. But the same logic could just as easily be used on them and their group, if they think that's somehow wrong then they're being hypocritical and narcissistic, as they think that they are somehow different and special compared to anyone else which is why they think they have the right to kill the other group and that doing so would be good.

Me understanding that they think they're special doesn't change the fact that they're wrong, they're just the same as everyone else. At most I'd respect them if they showed some sort of discipline and adherence to their belief, and if they showed skill in anything they did. But that's about it.

Generally speaking I would say the quote is both true and false. true because if you had full understanding of why someone did something then you could understand why they did it from their perspective and it would at least make sense. However, someone could genuinely believe in something they're doing,\ and yet that thing could still be completely self contradictory, hypocritical, and narcissistic. Which is the only basis that I'd use to judge any sort of "good" or "evil" on, as no objective form could exist.

For example, some religious zealot could genuinely believe that killing some other group was a morally good thing to do. But the same logic could just as easily be used on them and their group, if they think that's somehow wrong then they're being hypocritical and narcissistic, as they think that they are somehow different and special compared to anyone else which is why they think they have the right to kill the other group and that doing so would be good.

Me understanding that they think they're special doesn't change the fact that they're wrong, they're just the same as everyone else. At most I'd respect them if they showed some sort of discipline and adherence to their belief, and if they showed skill in anything they did. But that's about it.

To elaborate more, I have a concept I call "Completing the link" which is about teh cycle of abuse and revenge. Generally speaking someone who becomes an abuser does so because they themselves were abused at one point. Each victim starts as an open link in a chain of abuse. However if they transition to abusing someone else, they become a closed link. At this point they stop being a victim in my eyes, despite knowing and not uncommonly admitting that they became the way they were because of what someone else did to them, they apparently didn't care enough to not do that to someone else. They decided that they were special and exempt and had a sort of "revenge license" because of their feelings, and they created new victims the same way they were created. Some people are conscious of this, and those I can still respect. They can, in some cases, still be helped. Though their psychological damage is typically extreme by that point. The others who freak out and insist that I need to care about their precious feelings, when they couldn't be bothered to do the same for their new victims, aren't worth much. Me understanding their pain doesn't change that, it only cements it. But sometimes they come around.

Likewise with people who try to weasel their way out of responsibility, full or partial, by saying they were just following orders. actions speak a lot louder than words, so you can say you disagree all you want, but if you're still marching in your formation and doing nothing at all to subvert the operation of your group covertly or overtly, that you claim to not agree with, then you're just lying. Clearly, you do agree with them, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be helping them. This one can get a little tricky though, as by definition any subversion is likely to be covert, as open or discovered disobedience could be fatal or torturous depending on teh group and circumstances. Thus its not smart to make snap decisions about such people based on first impressions. If some breathing room can be created for any potential dissenters, then it becomes easier when you look at who gets shifty and who doesn't.

To elaborate more, I have a concept I call "Completing the link" which is about teh cycle of abuse and revenge. Generally speaking someone who becomes an abuser does so because they themselves were abused at one point. Each victim starts as an open link in a chain of abuse. However if they transition to abusing someone else, they become a closed link. At this point they stop being a victim in my eyes,

What if at soul level we really are ‘love’? This is one message I have picked up many times while reading esoteric books, articles, or from videos. If indeed this is the case, and the soul or spirit or whatever we might call the part of us that is truly God (all parts of us are truly God in truth, but the part of herself that God splits off) is given free will, so given the freedom to make choices, and the intellect and ego to allow such choices, whether good or bad.

Would we not always be seen as that innocent child (love) that made (seemingly) bad choices and became (for example) a drug addict, or a drug pusher, or a terrorist that blew people up or countless such negative examples. If we were God, any such flawed individuals would still be his innocent child that started out as love, and in essence, is still that way. If the terrorist or drug addict started of as my or your innocent baby, surely you would always have love in your heart for him or her? But seeing things from a human perspective only, things get obfuscated by being seen through a filter of ego. Perhaps God has no such filter, he/she/It sees the whole picture without any such obfuscation, and so is able to forgive anything. Maybe it hardly needs any ‘time’ wasted on considering the problem, to God, such things have been learned and assumed to be, a long long time ago. (If time really is as we think it is, it’s probably not)

It’s difficult to express in writing any idea I have about God, or indeed my thinking about purpose for living. I find sufficient purpose in one simple shared joke with my wife or daughter, or the joy I feel when I listen to music etc.  I have a solid basis for my ‘theory‘, although it is difficult to express. It is not based on ideas in my head alone, there is plenty evidence to back it up. From reincarnation to NDEs to Jesus’ teachings and more. Some will say “I don’t get it” or “but what about...”this or that. They may well be valid points, some that I have no answer for, but I don’t understand how some people get angry when hearing others ideas. People seem to still be angry about the Holocaust for example. At this stage, from my perspective, anger is pointless. I felt deep sadness when I saw the Holocaust area in the big museum in London, but I don’t think I felt anger. Why does the concept of evil bring out different emotions in different people?

I think the answer to that question may be found in past lives. If anyone can disprove the idea that we keep returning to earth again and again then my whole theory fails. That it exists adds to it. There are always exceptions. Perhaps Jesus was an example of a part of God that wasn’t part of the ‘consciousness level’ crowd around at that time. Maybe He was a being that had already been through the process but chose to come once again to do something necessary. Is such thinking only wishful? Or is it religious fantasy? I don’t want to know the answers to everything all at once! I give you the joy of foreplay as my logical reasoning. The journey is as joyous as reaching the destination...but enough of that filth, my American friends will be reaching for the channel changer. (Only teasing, there surely aren’t any/many such ‘fanatics’ here as far as I’m aware, if I’m wrong, you’re welcome here as far as I’m concerned)

Likewise with people who try to weasel their way out of responsibility, full or partial, by saying they were just following orders. actions speak a lot louder than words, so you can say you disagree all you want, but if you're still marching in your formation and doing nothing at all to subvert the operation of your group covertly or overtly, that you claim to not agree with, then you're just lying. Clearly, you do agree with them, because if you didn't, you wouldn't be helping them.

Such people are indeed responsible, they make their choices, and they are recorded. (The Akashic records). They’re (the choices) carefully noted, but the deep emotion that accompany such choices on earth, the emotion that is felt by those who feel the ripples of actions or non actions carried out (or not carried out) are not present when they are relived during the life review. These emotions are seemingly not present to those in monks robes, or the light beings that are often reported as present when the individual are seeing the consequence of their actions from other points of view. I haven’t ever read a report from an NDEr that seemed to show a negative response to their actions, they always feel regret, or shame or some such feeling when seeing their (poor?) choices replayed, I haven’t read any that say “yes, he deserved a good kicking!”  They always seem to wish they’d taken the path that Jesus might have followed. Why so?

Maybe ‘all this’ really is an elaborate hoax, as Roger Ebert said to his wife on his deathbed? I choose to believe that (my) God exists, that Love is at the base, that choosing to think this way has helped me get through very real, difficult patches in my life. Sure I have flaws, but overall I’m happy with myself. Things I think important? Stay light and flexible in your thoughts, keep a sense of humour.

If I’m captured by Isis, or get a horrid cancer, or even Covid19, my thinking may change. I will try always to hold on to the thought that it’s all a journey, for our benefit. I will attempt to enjoy it all, or at least take something positive from it, even the shitty bits!

What if at soul level we really are ‘love’? This is one message I have picked up many times while reading esoteric books, articles, or from videos. If indeed this is the case, and the soul or spirit or whatever we might call the part of us that is truly God (all parts of us are truly God in truth, but the part of herself that God splits off) is given free will, so given the freedom to make choices, and the intellect and ego to allow such choices, whether good or bad.

Would we not always be seen as that innocent child (love) that made (seemingly) bad choices and became (for example) a drug addict, or a drug pusher, or a terrorist that blew people up or countless such negative examples. If we were God, any such flawed individuals would still be his innocent child that started out as love, and in essence, is still that way. If the terrorist or drug addict started of as my or your innocent baby, surely you would always have love in your heart for him or her? But seeing things from a human perspective only, things get obfuscated by being seen through a filter of ego. Perhaps God has no such filter, he/she/It sees the whole picture without any such obfuscation, and so is able to forgive anything. Maybe it hardly needs any ‘time’ wasted on considering the problem, to God, such things have been learned and assumed to be, a long long time ago. (If time really is as we think it is, it’s probably not)

It’s difficult to express in writing any idea I have about God, or indeed my thinking about purpose for living. I find sufficient purpose in one simple shared joke with my wife or daughter, or the joy I feel when I listen to music etc.  I have a solid basis for my ‘theory‘, although it is difficult to express. It is not based on ideas in my head alone, there is plenty evidence to back it up. From reincarnation to NDEs to Jesus’ teachings and more. Some will say “I don’t get it” or “but what about...”this or that. They may well be valid points, some that I have no answer for, but I don’t understand how some people get angry when hearing others ideas. People seem to still be angry about the Holocaust for example. At this stage, from my perspective, anger is pointless. I felt deep sadness when I saw the Holocaust area in the big museum in London, but I don’t think I felt anger. Why does the concept of evil bring out different emotions in different people?

I think the answer to that question may be found in past lives. If anyone can disprove the idea that we keep returning to earth again and again then my whole theory fails. That it exists adds to it. There are always exceptions. Perhaps Jesus was an example of a part of God that wasn’t part of the ‘consciousness level’ crowd around at that time. Maybe He was a being that had already been through the process but chose to come once again to do something necessary. Is such thinking only wishful? Or is it religious fantasy? I don’t want to know the answers to everything all at once! I give you the joy of foreplay as my logical reasoning. The journey is as joyous as reaching the destination...but enough of that filth, my American friends will be reaching for the channel changer. (Only teasing, there surely aren’t any/many such ‘fanatics’ here as far as I’m aware, if I’m wrong, you’re welcome here as far as I’m concerned)




Such people are indeed responsible, they make their choices, and they are recorded. (The Akashic records). They’re (the choices) carefully noted, but the deep emotion that accompany such choices on earth, the emotion that is felt by those who feel the ripples of actions or non actions carried out (or not carried out) are not present when they are relived during the life review. These emotions are seemingly not present to those in monks robes, or the light beings that are often reported as present when the individual are seeing the consequence of their actions from other points of view. I haven’t ever read a report from an NDEr that seemed to show a negative response to their actions, they always feel regret, or shame or some such feeling when seeing their (poor?) choices replayed, I haven’t read any that say “yes, he deserved a good kicking!”  They always seem to wish they’d taken the path that Jesus might have followed. Why so?

Maybe ‘all this’ really is an elaborate hoax, as Roger Ebert said to his wife on his deathbed? I choose to believe that (my) God exists, that Love is at the base, that choosing to think this way has helped me get through very real, difficult patches in my life. Sure I have flaws, but overall I’m happy with myself. Things I think important? Stay light and flexible in your thoughts, keep a sense of humour.

If I’m captured by Isis, or get a horrid cancer, or even Covid19, my thinking may change. I will try always to hold on to the thought that it’s all a journey, for our benefit. I will attempt to enjoy it all, or at least take something positive from it, even the shitty bits!

There’s two problems with saying that everything/one is “love”

1: Love has no, and probably can’t have, any universal, objective definition

2: even if it did, if everything was love, it simultaneously means nothing is, since there’s nothing to compare it to to know. Thus cancelling it out.

This raises the larger problem of people trying to always externalize their choices. They can’t just admit they’re the ones doing it, it needs to be because of something else, because its “the right thing to do” or any other reason. If someone is unwilling to acknowledge that, despite their reasoning, they’re still the ones making their choices, there’s not much chance that they’ll ever change. For that reason I adopted the general strategy that I use.

The vast, vast majority of people I’ve had to deal with can’t be said to be “evil” in any true sense. For pretty much everyone they do what they do because of a combination of their own trauma, values, and whatever information they have at the time. The interplay between wht they can do and what they want to do.

But those people are still acting out and causing problems, and unless they get dealt with they’ll just continue to do so. And they’ll be the cause of other peoples trauma and keep the cycle going, adding more and more links into the chain. Stopping that is a two fold process. First, the people immediately acting out need to be dealt with. But simultaneously they and others need to accept their role in the situation regardless of their reasoning. It’s not to say their reasoning or feelings aren’t valid, but they need to at the very least acknowledge that they’re part of the problem too. If they don’t care about that, then why should anyone else care about them and what they went through?

But that’s only some of the people, others genuinely believe that they’re somehow inherently different or special compared to others. Whether that happens because its a coping mechanism to deal with trauma that went out of control or because of some other non-traumatic reason doesn’t really matter. They still genuinely believe it at the time and will typically viciously defend it. They, I would argue, cause the most problems. At leat with the former type of person, they may be trying to push away parts of reality because of injury, but those things are still “wrong” in their own mind. And the moment they see that they’re doing something they themselves consider wrong, they tend to calm down quite a bit, sometimes it takes one last extreme burst of them trying to deny it before they exhaust themselves and calm down, but it still happens. With the latter though, what they’re doing is no longer wrong in their own mind. It now has a logical justification based on whatever they want it to, but its typically external in their mind. The only way to really get those people to stop is to physically stop them, and often doing so can prove their narcissism wrong to them, though it can also just make them double down for next time.

The last and most difficult group are those who are completely conscious of what they’re doing. Depending on what reason they’re going with it might not be possible to change their mind. If they’ve absorbed their trauma and recognized what it makes othe people do there might be nothing left to change them with. At most, if it came from trauma that still exists, they may not truly believe what they’re doing or would prefer not to but see no other choice and are only trying to convince themselves. But there’s no guarantees that will make them stop. They may just go full suicide on you if you’re able to point it out to them. And physically stopping them might just make things worse, as they tend to expect it and have already resigned themselve to it. Even so, it typically still needs to be done.

I’ve only ever met one person (that I can still remember anyways) who I tried putting into the evil category because they were completely conscious of everything they were doing and all potential and resulting consequences. But even with them it failed eventually, because they weren’t a hypocrite about it. All it was for them was a game, and they didn’t really care if they won or lost. But literally every single person I can think of that I’ve ever had to deal with had two qualities

1: They believed they were either more than or less than nothing

2: they valued the external world more than the internal one

Reincarnation doesn’t provide any extra meaning or rationality to any of this. All it means is that you come back somewhere after one body dies. And even if this place was somehow set up as a school, it doesn’t mean that’s the meaning of existence. Just because all schools are in buildings doesn’t mean all buildings are schools, nor does it mean that the only thing that can possibly happen in a school building is “school stuff”. It’s a building first, school second. All my information comes from my own past memories, though as far as I’m concerned its a single contiguous existence constituting one life even if bodies get changed and changed back at various points.

Until people here recognize that they’re the ones in control of their own lives nothing ill change here. I’m sorry but for the most part there aren’t any real problems in this place. Every problem people complain about is partly caused by them just being obedient to something else. The whole world could be fixed, mostly non violently, in probably at most 20 years if people clued in and stopped outsourcing responsiility of their own lives to gods, governments, and etc.

Exceptions exist in more war torn areas. That’s the type of thing I’m more used to dealing with because those are real problems that aren’t so easily solved just by making different choices and not being obedient. Though that still is the majority of the solution.

It’s also why I still value combat as the most fundamental of all skills, because sooner or later it always comes down to a fight. It really doesn’t matter what else you want to do in your life if someone or something can just walk up and take it all away. The only real question is how big of a fight and who’s going to be involved. But nonetheless, power is the determining factor, not love or anything else. You’re either better or you’re not. Or to paraphrase Bill Burr during one act talking about people suggesting he buy a windmill and plant a garden but not buy a gun “Sure you cn do that, but without a gun all you’re really doing is gathering supplies for the toughest guy on the block.”

Someone somewhere in the chain always really truly believes in what they’re doing for some reason, and most everyone else below/around them are only doing so out of trauma, fear, etc. I used to exclusively try to hunt said people, believing that if they were taken out then the whole chain would start resolving. And it worked, so I kept doing it. But my initial premise was flawed, the people at the bottom, being obedient, were the larger problem, not the people at the top. Since the people at the top often didn’t have enough power on their own to be anywhere near as large a problem, it was the lackies and the people who just sort of did nothing hoping it would all just go away that made things as bad as they were. Their general fear and etc weren’t a good enough reason, it was just an excuse for their own narcissism. People like me and the group of friends I made along the way sure had no problem rebelling and putting our lives on the line, so what excuse could they have? It’s not like we were special or anything.

I used to take a more utilitarian view about people, that the more people still alive the better, because regardless of how someones acts today, they have the same potential as everyone else. But these days I’ve learned that I need to pay more attention to how someone is right now, because sure they might change and do something great or whatever, but they probably won’t. Some people are just more worth helping and saving than others. 

The only people worth helping are those legitimately unable to help themselves because they’re up against something far more powerful than them even if they did everything right. For everyone else their problems and trauma are mostly just their own choices, and there’s no point having sympathy for people choosing to hurt themselves. They’ll learn eventually or they won’t.

Keep in mind this is the perspective of someone who’s done this from the outside like a cop, not just someone who grows up in one of these situations with no memories and then bands together with friends around them and solves it internally. Though I’ve done that too, more than a few times. This life nearly went the same way, but it’s good that it didn’t.

There’s two problems with saying that everything/one is “love”

Only two? That’s an improvement!   

1: Love has no, and probably can’t have, any universal, objective definition

Does having a definition matter? The ‘feeling’ that many NDErs experience can’t be defined by them, yet they all know it as Love.

 if everything was love, it simultaneously means nothing is, since there’s nothing to compare it to to know.

But we know that everything is not love, so where does that leave us?

But we know that everything is not love, so where does that leave us?

It has been suggested (not by me) that the nature of this world includes shadows. Shadows are not populated by anti-photons or similar, but simply indicates an absence or reduced proportion of photons.

It has been suggested (not by me) that the nature of this world includes shadows. Shadows are not populated by anti-photons or similar, but simply indicates an absence or reduced proportion of photons.

So it’s possibly in a way only a perception of lack of love? Yep, I’ll store that as a possibility.