(2017-10-09, 12:58 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]Just so you know, I do my best to be factual and representative in my posts, so if you think something is wrong or misleading, it is likely that you just need to ask me for clarification.
Tim and I have been over this many times before, so discussion with him will not resolve his issues.
Denture man - The emergency staff had initiated the reanimation process in the field (which includes CPR). The staff took over the reanimation process when the patient was brought to the room and the dentures were removed at that time.
http://netwerknde.nl/wp-content/uploads/...ureman.pdf
I was not pointing to the studies with respect to their hypotheses and conclusions. I referred to them because they included the data that we need - what levels of awareness may be present during CPR. I referred specifically to the figures in the papers showing 1) BIS scores in people who demonstrated some level of (anesthesia) awareness and 2) BIS scores obtained during CPR, to show that BIS scores obtained during CPR met or exceeded the scores associated with awareness.
Of course, we do not know what the situation was with the Denture man, and my point was only that this case would not satisfy what you had asked me about - evidence (in the scientific sense we had discussed) from an NDE/OBE - because do not have enough information to confirm that sense data would be impossible. I get that many proponents feel (quite vehemently) that we do have enough. But the question was about my perspective, which includes different knowledge and experience.
Pam Reynolds - I haven't seen any mention of a suppression ration from the surgeons' recollections or mention of EEG strips from the operation that were made available to provide this ratio. Pam Reynolds did not need to be conscious/awake (and I have stated many times that I agree that she would not be conscious under burst suppression) in order to register some words and include them in her NDE. Research into memory under anesthesia demonstrates that memories can be present without the subject becoming awake. In fact, this is fairly common (I can provide you with some references if you are interested in this).
No mention has been made of a record, recorded as Maria spoke to Kimberley Clark and prior to any investigation by Ms. Clark (and therefore blinded). Nor is there any mention of photographs which document the shoe or its location and visibility. This is the kind of information which might satisfy what you had asked me about (examples of scientific evidence pointing to impossible sense data), although we still have the problem that Maria had been in the hospital for several days prior to her NDE and we don't know what she may have been told or overhead (i.e. we don't have access to all the sense data available to her).
Part of why I said that the sighting of hidden targets would supply decent evidence was because of the situation above. Proponents will argue that sense data has been rendered impossible under conditions where we have inadequate information to determine this one way or the other. So all we end up with is one side accusing the other of credulity or unreasoning close-mindedness. The hiding of the targets can get us past that aspect. The problem which I think we all agree on, though, is that targets haven't been sighted and it doesn't seem likely they ever will - we're not sure that psi will work like that.
Linda
Linda said >"Tim and I have been over this many times before, so discussion with him will not resolve his issues. "
and > "
Not in the least. I'm saying that because BIS (and other) studies show us that CPR can be effective at maintaining perfusion to vital organs, including the brain, that it isn't a stretch to suggest that CPR may have been effective in the denture man case. At the least, it shouldn't be a slam dunk to assume that CPR wasn't effective, in the absence of data one way or the other."
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Disgraceful behaviour !! There is no issue other than your shenanigans , Linda.
From Smit's corroboration paper :
The patient, B., from Ooy near the city of Nijmegen, had indeed been
brought in on a cold night, more dead than alive, and had undergone
the whole procedure as reported in A.A.’s interview with T.G., who
was adamant in stating that B. had not shown any sign whatsoever of
being conscious at the time.
He was clinically dead, period: no heartbeat, no breathing, no blood pressure, and ‘‘cold as ice.’’ The
ambulance personnel had tried to carry out some reanimation while
driving to the hospital but without result.
More importantly, after B. entered the hospital,
T.G. removed the dentures from
B.’s mouth and intubated him before starting up the entire
reanimation procedure. Therefore, as TG categorically stated, any
‘‘normal’’ observation by the patient of his dentures being removed from
his mouth was simply unthinkable !
In addition, the normal observation process could not have been the
basis of the patient’s detailed description of the crash cart as well as of
the entire resuscitation room. Once again, T.G. was adamant in that
regard, noting that patient B. had never before been in that hospital, let
alone in this resuscitation room, and that this particular crash cart was
absolutely unique, being a hand-made product of ramshackle quality
that had been stationed in that resuscitation room only and nowhere
else.
To guess the precise nature of that cart and its contents on the
basis of auditory impressions, or through briefly opened eyes characterized
by fixed, dilated, unresponsive pupils, was impossible by all
accounts.
T.G. asserted that certainly it would have been impossible for
B. to know precisely where T.G. had placed the dentures.
You are simply repeating the same falsehoods that you were so fond of on Skeptiko.
