(2017-09-18, 11:13 AM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I agree. I feel much the same way. Which is why I suggested that we seem to be talking past each other - I didn't think you were deliberately trying to run in circles, and I'm not. You're other post was helpful, so I can give some more specific examples.
Linda
Still waiting for an example to discuss.
(2017-09-18, 11:13 AM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I agree. I feel much the same way. Which is why I suggested that we seem to be talking past each other - I didn't think you were deliberately trying to run in circles, and I'm not. You're other post was helpful, so I can give some more specific examples.
On the subject of specific examples of psi, should I conclude that you don't want to talk about the Global Consciousness Project?
(2017-09-18, 09:22 AM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]For this conversation I'm just removing physical psi such as PK (eg spoon bending, table tipping,,) and trying to stick with phenomenon that are more centered on the seat of consciousness, and personal information. ie: whether we are physical or non-physical beings at our core.
So for example- can you give an example that would fullful your demands for facilities such as: NDE, OBE, Mediumship, Reincarnation, or similar ?
NDE and OBE are easier. They are more about whether our sensory perceptions can be non-physical.* One kind of good evidence is what is called "all or none case series"**, and that would be useful here. The identification of hidden targets, such as those used by Parnia in the AWARE study and Sartori in her ICU NDE studies would fulfill my demands.
Mediumship and reincarnation, which are more about non-physical preservation of personality and memory, are more difficult to isolate. I think in both cases you need a longer perspective - it can't be don't with one kind of experiment.
Readings performed and assessed with control groups, under blind conditions, are a good start. But the problem is that the effect tends to disappear under those conditions. One idea I had was to look at remarkable correspondences (what people often refer to as establishing veridicality), which may persist. It doesn't distinguish between telepathy and non-physical preservation of personality, though.
Identifications done under double-blind conditions (like a police line-up) would fulfill my demands for reincarnation. Again, it doesn't distinguish between telepathy and non-physical preservation of personality. Which is why this would take a longer picture - follow-up investigations addressing different questions.
Linda
* I am going with your use of "physical and non-physical". I use physical and non-physical differently, which isn't relevant to the discussion, but it could be confusing if you looked at some of my old, old posts.
** All or none case series" are case series where formerly
all subjects had the relevant outcome, but now some do not, or formerly some subjects have the relevant outcome, but now
none do. The first part is relevant here - the one exception, when that exception is never expected, becomes evidentiary.
(2017-09-18, 11:35 AM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Still waiting for an example to discuss.
Didn't realize I was on the clock. I was typing as fast as I could. I guess I shouldn't have paused to explain what an all or none case series was.
Linda
(2017-09-18, 11:54 AM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]NDE and OBE are easier. They are more about whether our sensory perceptions can be non-physical.* One kind of good evidence is what is called "all or none case series"**, and that would be useful here. The identification of hidden targets, such as those used by Parnia in the AWARE study and Sartori in her ICU NDE studies would fulfill my demands.
Mediumship and reincarnation, which are more about non-physical preservation of personality and memory, are more difficult to isolate. I think in both cases you need a longer perspective - it can't be don't with one kind of experiment.
Readings performed and assessed with control groups, under blind conditions, are a good start. But the problem is that the effect tends to disappear under those conditions. One idea I had was to look at remarkable correspondences (what people often refer to as establishing veridicality), which may persist. It doesn't distinguish between telepathy and non-physical preservation of personality, though.
Identifications done under double-blind conditions (like a police line-up) would fulfill my demands for reincarnation. Again, it doesn't distinguish between telepathy and non-physical preservation of personality. Which is why this would take a longer picture - follow-up investigations addressing different questions.
Linda
* I am going with your use of "physical and non-physical". I use physical and non-physical differently, which isn't relevant to the discussion, but it could be confusing if you looked at some of my old, old posts.
** All or none case series" are case series where formerly all subjects had the relevant outcome, but now some do not, or formerly some subjects have the relevant outcome, but now none do. The first part is relevant here - the one exception, when that exception is never expected, becomes evidentiary.
Thank you...
I want to take a closer look and think and then ask a question or two...
One question does come to mind immediately though.
Since much of this data in literature comes from non-controlled, non-lab situations, I was really curious if there is a "non-managed" (not prearranged) situation that you would find convincing? Or is the very nature of this sort of evidence not reliable to you on a prima facie basis?
(2017-09-18, 12:03 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you...
I want to take a closer look and think and then ask a question or two...
One question does come to mind immediately though.
Since much of this data in literature comes from non-controlled, non-lab situations, I was really curious if there is a "non-managed" (not prearranged) situation that you would find convincing? Or is the very nature of this sort of evidence not reliable to you on a prima facie basis?
That's a really good question. I would have to be able to completely trust that someone wasn't fooled, and I don't think I would be able. I don't completely trust that I can't be fooled, but there are a few spontaneous experiences I think I could trust. I'll describe what I'm currently working on (which is more about anomalous knowledge than non-physical consciousness) as something which could be reliable to me on a prima facie basis.
I lucid dream. And one uncommon skill I have is that I can read and recall bits of books in my dreams, with difficulty and concentration. When this happens, I try to immediately wake up and write downl what I read and then see if I can match this to a real book. My hope is that I can match this to a book I haven't read. So far, the phrases I've written down mostly haven't been specific enough. I was able to get something specific enough to match to a single book, but it was a book I possibly read. This is an ongoing project and one day I may be successful - I get something about one or two times a month and last time was two nights ago.
Linda
(2017-09-18, 11:40 AM)Chris Wrote: [ -> ]On the subject of specific examples of psi, should I conclude that you don't want to talk about the Global Consciousness Project?
I don't want to talk to you. You've been nothing but an ass to me in the past.
When you opened your post with accusations of game-playing, even though I don't engage in that, it was your third strike for me on this forum.
Linda
(2017-09-18, 12:22 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]That's a really good question. I would have to be able to completely trust that someone wasn't fooled, and I don't think I would be able. I don't completely trust that I can't be fooled, but there are a few spontaneous experiences I think I could trust. I'll describe what I'm currently working on (which is more about anomalous knowledge than non-physical consciousness) as something which could be reliable to me on a prima facie basis.
I lucid dream. And one uncommon skill I have is that I can read and recall bits of books in my dreams, with difficulty and concentration. When this happens, I try to immediately wake up and write downl what I read and then see if I can match this to a real book. My hope is that I can match this to a book I haven't read. So far, the phrases I've written down mostly haven't been specific enough. I was able to get something specific enough to match to a single book, but it was a book I possibly read. This is an ongoing project and one day I may be successful - I get something about one or two times a month and last time was two nights ago.
Linda
BTW, when I say "fooled", I don't mean trickery, per se (although it could also be that sometimes). I'm thinking more of being fooled by circumstances.
Linda
(2017-09-18, 12:22 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]That's a really good question. I would have to be able to completely trust that someone wasn't fooled, and I don't think I would be able. I don't completely trust that I can't be fooled, but there are a few spontaneous experiences I think I could trust. I'll describe what I'm currently working on (which is more about anomalous knowledge than non-physical consciousness) as something which could be reliable to me on a prima facie basis.
I lucid dream. And one uncommon skill I have is that I can read and recall bits of books in my dreams, with difficulty and concentration. When this happens, I try to immediately wake up and write downl what I read and then see if I can match this to a real book. My hope is that I can match this to a book I haven't read. So far, the phrases I've written down mostly haven't been specific enough. I was able to get something specific enough to match to a single book, but it was a book I possibly read. This is an ongoing project and one day I may be successful - I get something about one or two times a month and last time was two nights ago.
Linda
Linda:
Great info. Thanks!
BTW: I am a lucid dreamer. I have had an experience that is a bit convoluted but I find convincing. Rather than spend who knows how long to arrange it and write it, I am pasting a link to a video where I discuss it.
Pardon the video quality, I know it is poor, but I was using is as a working tool for planning a lecture series I'm doing in the Spring.
The section I would point you to starts at 46:00 and ends around 1:05:00. If you have 20 minutes, check that part out. It's shows something similar to what you are describing.
