Opinion’s on Keith Augustine?

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(2023-06-19, 05:48 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: As to why he has not done so, I'd think Stevenson's own life's work would point to a possible answer?

Anybody with an imagination could come up with multiple possible reasons.  How about it is difficult after death to contact the living?
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(2023-06-19, 05:48 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: While I think it would be *better* if Stevenson had communicated this information, I'm not sure this would tip the scales much either way. People would just say the whole thing was staged prior to his death, or that someone had managed to guess the correct answer.

As to why he has not done so, I'd think Stevenson's own life's work would point to a possible answer?

The protocol that Stevenson applied is quite robust and clear. As for tilting the scales, no evidence ever has done so. But it think it's problematic for those of us who are survivalists that it hasn't happened when it comes to the lines of evidence for survival coming from ADCs, apparitions and mediumship.

The combination lock test is part of Stevenson's life work. He and other parapsychologists  deemed it extremely important for settling the topic of purported survival evidence from Living Agent Psi. Stevenson managed to provide evidence for survival in form of memories from a previous incarnation, which is not exactly the same as communicating hidden information to living people from another realm of existence.

Thanks for your input, Sci.
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(2023-06-19, 06:08 PM)Brian Wrote: Anybody with an imagination could come up with multiple possible reasons.  How about it is difficult after death to contact the living?

Yeah it's a bit of a conundrum actually, because not having the information that opens the locks is a point against Survival.

But if within the hour someone claimed to have the combination given to them from beyond the grave by Stevenson it would be largely dismissed as part of an elaborate set up concocted while Stevenson was alive.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2023-06-19, 06:14 PM)Sam Wrote: The combination lock test is part of Stevenson's life work. He and other parapsychologists  deemed it extremely important for settling the topic of purported survival evidence from Living Agent Psi.

As Peter Mulacz notes that's something the test would not do:

Quote:Both tests, the Thouless cipher code and the padlock tests, suffer from this
flaw and cannot be seen as proper devices for the purpose they have been designed
to serve. The Thouless test, like all of the tests where the information is stored only
mentally, still has the advantage that any success may be referred to ESP (telepathy)
only as long as the one who had encoded the message is still alive, although further
alternative interpretations in case of breaking the code after the death of its inventor
are not ruled out completely3. In reference to a successful padlock test, on the other
hand, ESP (clairvoyance) may be claimed at any time. Hence I feel – contrary to Ian
Stevenson’s opinion – that padlock tests are that much inferior in design that they
never can provide conclusive evidence for the survival issue (interesting though they
might be for ESP research).

Edit: I realize Stevenson felt ESP of some sort could get the combination but not the meangingful phrase it's based on, but I just have trouble seeing  why this would be the case...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-19, 07:22 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
(2023-06-19, 02:47 PM)Brian Wrote: One thing is for sure, those atheists who are commenting are doing so with a passion and a zeal worthy of any religion!  
It's like that thread Merle linked to on christianforums.net discussing the soul, atheist apologetics tend to be pretty agressive and confrontational...
Also, he argues against the "conforting" nature of survival conveniently ignoring ideas of bleak afterlives, or their own arguments about why oblivion is great.
(This post was last modified: 2023-06-20, 10:36 PM by quirkybrainmeat. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2023-06-19, 02:55 PM)Brian Wrote: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/675...no1-70.pdf

To begin with, I am in complete agreement with Augustine's
summary of the evidence in controlled studies attempting to find
evidence of veridical perception during NDEs. While the evidence for
such perceptions is abundant from anecdotal sources, as I have
already pointed out in Chapter Two of my book Lessons for the Light
(Ring and Valarino, 1998), there is so far no evidence at all from
controlled studies. Thus, the burden of proof remains on the
proponents of this argument.
When it comes to Augustine's critique of the research on NDE in the
blind as reported in my book, Mindsight (Ring and Cooper, 2007),
however, most of his objections can be easily refuted or otherwise
dismissed

Kenneth Ring has been one of the foremost NDE researchers and I think he showed a lot of wisdom in his concluding remarks in this paper on veridical NDE evidence in respect to attacks by one of the leading NDE skeptics, Keith Augustine:

Quote:"....I have tried to speak in their (the NDEr's)
voice so that they would be heard, not me. In this respect, the evidence
from NDEs is, I believe, highly suggestive that some form of
consciousness continues after death; the abundant NDE testimony I
have heard and read convinces me, as it does most others, of that.
Augustine of course is free to reject such testimony or to insist that it
does not (absolutely) prove anything. I can certainly agree with him on the latter
point, but I cannot disregard what NDErs have shared with me over
a period of more than twenty years, and I dare say that if Augustine
had had the opportunity I did during the time I was active in the field,
he might well find himself concurring with me. In any case, I
encourage him to look into the matter for himself by cultivating direct
contact with NDErs."
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(2023-06-19, 05:48 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: While I think it would be *better* if Stevenson had communicated this information, I'm not sure this would tip the scales much either way. People would just say the whole thing was staged prior to his death, or that someone had managed to guess the correct answer.

As to why he has not done so, I'd think Stevenson's own life's work would point to a possible answer?

There's always the possibility that we are being gently led towards acceptance of the larger reality including the "spiritual" dimensions. Perhaps these "proofs" are discouraged - after all, it must be a common agreement between the dying and their living friends and families. I have no idea how many of these agreements have positive outcomes but I do think that those involving famous people would be suppressed.

Be that as it may, we do have a rich and varied trove of evidence anyway. Do we throw it all out because some scheme didn't materialise?
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2023-06-24, 03:43 AM)Kamarling Wrote: There's always the possibility that we are being gently led towards acceptance of the larger reality including the "spiritual" dimensions. Perhaps these "proofs" are discouraged - after all, it must be a common agreement between the dying and their living friends and families. I have no idea how many of these agreements have positive outcomes but I do think that those involving famous people would be suppressed.

Be that as it may, we do have a rich and varied trove of evidence anyway. Do we throw it all out because some scheme didn't materialise?

There's a reincarnation case where the phone number of the past-life person is near perfect save two digits are transposed. So I do think it should be possible to communicate the information, but you'd likely need a very large number of locks in hopes of getting past life or after death communication that hits one.

But I do agree that we shouldn't base our decision about the truth of Survival simply on the fact that these locks haven't been opened.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-24, 04:30 AM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
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This recent reply to Augustine is relevant: https://journalofscientificexploration.o.../view/2649
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