Dreams -- Underlying Meta Structure

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(2017-09-21, 01:39 PM)chuck Wrote: I can certainly understand why you may believe that. For me there just isn't enough evidence one way or the other. Perhaps the brain really is that powerful. How would we really know?

I guess we could compare the creativity of the best human artists in waking consciousness to the creativity of whatever-it-is that creates dreams. For me, there's no comparison. Dreams are far and above any "ordinary" human creativity.
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(2017-09-21, 01:16 PM)jkmac Wrote: Anyway, I am doubtful that the descriptions would include enough detail about "camera angles" and "shots" to draw any conclusions.

No, but they may use such language as "The picture switched to where I was looking at the dog's face very close for only an instant. Then again I was looking at the greater landscape." Writing skills were quite sharp in the 19th century. I'm sure there are some published dream diaries out there. I just don't have time to research right now.
(2017-09-21, 01:42 PM)Laird Wrote: I guess we could compare the creativity of the best human artists in waking consciousness to the creativity of whatever-it-is that creates dreams. For me, there's no comparison. Dreams are far and above any "ordinary" human creativity.

Well I've never had a dream with the scope of a Shakespeare play to give only one example. Can you explain more about how the brains capacity to create dreams would relate to human artistic output?
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(2017-09-21, 01:53 PM)chuck Wrote: Well I've never had a dream with the scope of a Shakespeare play to give only one example. Can you explain more about how the brains capacity to create dreams would relate to human artistic output?

Probably not without entering you into my dreamworld. I know that's probably a copout but the sort of dreams of which I'm thinking aren't very amenable to being put into words, and sometimes not even into waking logic. I think when you transcend human logic in a dream and enter some sort of realm of paralogic - something that I have never seen a human artist do, and can't even imagine how it would be done - you can be pretty sure that you're not dealing with an ordinary, personal creativity.
(2017-09-21, 01:27 PM)jkmac Wrote: This is one of the reasons I don't believe the brain creates this sort of dream imagery. There is simply no way the brain is powerful enough to design, create, edit, and render this stuff, in completely accurate detail, indistinguishable from "real life", all in instant reaction to choices I am constantly making. Sorry folks,,, the physical brain is just not THAT powerful.

Well, if (hypothetically speaking) the brain is devoting 95% of its capacity (figure stated at random) in order to generate a scene, how much capacity remains in order to verify whether or not the scene has completely accurate detail, indistinguishable from real-life? And equally, if a discrepancy starts to appear, because the attention is concentrated on one detail, the scene generating mechanism can stop producing details elsewhere, where it doesn't matter, and produce them right at the point where it is needed.

Certainly if the same mechanism was both generating and validating, I don't see any way out of this.

For example. Suppose one was writing a computer program to perform some task, but had used an incorrect algorithm which generates the wrong results. Then the programmer writes a second program to verify the results, using the same incorrect algorithm. Everything would appear to be perfect.
(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Laird Wrote: Probably not without entering you into my dreamworld. I know that's probably a copout but the sort of dreams of which I'm thinking aren't very amenable to being put into words, and sometimes not even into waking logic. I think when you transcend human logic in a dream and enter some sort of realm of paralogic - something that I have never seen a human artist do, and can't even imagine how it would be done - you can be pretty sure that you're not dealing with an ordinary, personal creativity.

Sounds reasonable. Thanks.
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(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote: We don't realize how subconsciously creative we are.  We are totally responsible for the creation of the various realities we live in.  Who is the master who makes the grass green?

God?

I guess I see our personal consciousnesses as connected to higher (and lower) consciousness, which, when we sleep, "help us" with our creative dreaming. Some dreams - sure, they're mostly our minds "working things through". Many, though, are due to that deeper connection with consciousnesses beyond us. Much as I'd like to give props to my personal creativity, many of my dreams are just too far beyond to do that.
(2017-09-21, 01:39 PM)chuck Wrote: I can certainly understand why you may believe that. For me there just isn't enough evidence one way or the other. Perhaps the brain really is that powerful. How would we really know?

We know because we have several thousand years of historical information, and a couple hundred years of experimental experience with what the brain can do, and nothing has ever uncovered this sort of thing.

We also have some knowledge of what amount of processing power it takes to do this sort of thing from VR development work, and we have guesses as to the processing power of the brain, which is how are able to predict when computers will exceed the brain's power.

Proof? No way.

But just a wild guess? No.
(2017-09-21, 01:58 PM)Brian Wrote: We don't realize how subconsciously creative we are.  We are totally responsible for the creation of the various realities we live in.  Who is the master who makes the grass green?

The real question is: where does the subconscious reside?
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