A debate over plant consciousness is forcing us to confront the limitations of the hu

And the angel of the lord came unto me snatching me up from my place of slumber.
And took me on high and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.
And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
And as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
One thousand nay a million voices full of fear.
And terror possessed me then.
And I begged
"Angel of the Lord what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,

"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."

[Laird]

Michael:

1. Re fructose malabsorption or intolerance, there are plenty of foods from the diet to which I linked that can be consumed given either condition - I would be surprised if it were not possible to live according to that diet on the basis of having difficulties with fructose. Worst-case scenario: you might have to take supplements.
   
2. Re the "gruesome" killing of raw plants versus the "quick" killing of animals, I think you have it totally the wrong way around: both the journey to and the experience after arriving at a slaughterhouse are anything but "quick"; they are also far from fear-free, and often not even painless (sometimes horrifically so). You don't take into account, too, the treatment from birth of farmed animals versus that of plants, in an era where factory farming is the norm. You say you oppose factory farming but again I ask: what choices are you making to avoid supporting it through your choices as a consumer?
   
3. Re foraging: this is certainly an ethical approach, but hardly practical for the majority in modern society, especially in cities. It can't be an ethical choice if it can't be done in the first place.
   
4. Re seed dispersal: I don't see this as necessary every time one consumes fruit - it's not as though fruit-bearing plants are in any danger of extinction given that humans have an interest in propagating them.
   
5. Re your cynicism: my experience is that vegetarians/vegans/fruitarians are motivated by a desire to minimise the suffering of other beings, especially those beings subjected to the horrors of factory farming. I see no hypocrisy in that.
   

[Laird]

On reflection, my first response to Michael was unnecessarily aggressive and thoughtless. I'm sorry for that, Michael. In part, it came out of caring very strongly for the non-human beings on this planet who are so often treated so badly by us humans, but of course that doesn't justify it, and nor is it the whole story.

I've also been reflecting on one point that you made (filtered through my perception so not necessarily an accurate paraphrasing): that even if that which I've been referring to as an ethical botanical fruitarian diet need not involve killing the host plants when harvesting their fruit/nuts/seeds, it probably does require the killing of plants due to weeding or some form of keeping the land clear. I think you're right that this is typically the case in current large-scale agriculture, but, and especially for smaller-scale farming, it might be feasible to use non-lethal approaches like mulching, which covers the soil with a layer that weeds are unable to grow through.

The Australian Government site on weed management describes mulching as one means of "cultural control" of weeds as part of an integrated weed management approach. Other non-lethal cultural control methods that it lists are to:

Encourage the competitiveness of desired species that are more competitive and fast growing. This suppresses weed growth by reducing access to available sunlight, nutrients and moisture and can include:

• Choose plant and crop species or cultivars that are naturally more competitive. This can include using plant species that suppress other plant species by the release of toxins.
  
• Use high quality (large and plump) seeds, as they are more likely to produce vigorous and competitive plants.
  
• Use increased seeding rates and narrow row spacing.
  
• Use shallow seeding techniques, where possible, to allow the desired species to grow above the soil surface more quickly.
  
• Ensure the desired plant is placed in the optimum growing environment.
  
• Use fertilisers in the optimal growth period to encourage rapid growth of the desired species.
  
• If possible use plant species that are native to the local environment.
  

Make it hard for weeds to adapt to weed management techniques. Using the same land management routines year after year may result in weeds adapting to these practices. Some practices that make it hard for weeds to adapt and therefore reduce their spread and vigour include:

• Rotate crops: if a weed has adapted to grain crops continuously being sown, then alternating with a broadleaf crop will remove the environmental condition to which the weed has adapted.
  
• Rotate species with different seasonal and growing cycles.
  

[The quoted content is under a Creative Commons Attribution Licence and is copyright Commonwealth of Australia 2018]

I've studied and interacted with plants for so long in so many ways that I find it hard to NOT think of them as aware "conscious" organisms but without a clear, agreed upon definition of consciousness, there will always be disagreement as exemplified in this article.  I guess if pressed, I would say plants have "plant consciousness" and insects have "insect consciousness" and so on...all organisms are "life" manifest in an apparatus that filters consciousness into their specific awareness of and action in the world.

Plants exhibit intelligence, but most don't realize this, because they're looking at the surface of plant behaviour.

Maybe I've posted this here, elsewhere, but my memory being like a sieve at the best of times right now, does me no favours. So, I'll post it again,

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Life-Plant...0060915870

The Secret Life of Plants: a Fascinating Account of the Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual Relations Between Plants and Man Paperback – March 8, 1989

by Peter Tompkins (Author), Christopher Bird (Author)

In this truly revolutionary and beloved work, drawn from remarkable research, Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird cast light on the rich psychic universe of plants. Now available in a new edition, The Secret Life of Plants explores plants' response to human care and nurturing, their ability to communicate with man, plants' surprising reaction to music, their lie-detection abilities, their creative powers, and much more. Tompkins and Bird's classic book affirms the depth of humanity's relationship with nature and adds special urgency to the cause of protecting the environment that nourishes us.

Also, this post I just made is also relevant, but I don't want to paste the whole thing in this thread:

https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-p...-worldview