To NDE or not to NDE (re-done)

Again, I really don’t understand the point you are trying to make. But I will just point out that some people have had such distressing experiences, that they are absolutely terrified of death.

Or maybe you don't want to answer the question. The answer is they don't fear death because they know it is not annihilation.

And if they have had a negative NDE with an OBE, they are terrified of going back there because they know they were not annihilated after they died.

EDIT :  Max said > some people have had such distressing experiences, that they are absolutely terrified of death.

Why should they be terrified of death when they didn't really die in the first place, according to your ideas?  And if these experiences (NDE's) can tell us nothing about life after death (because as you keep insisting they didn't actually die) ...WHY do they need to be afraid of their actual coming death based on an experience of not actually dying ? It's completely illogical, Max.

Why should they be terrified of death when they didn't really die in the first place, according to your ideas?

Possibly the same reason I'm afraid of spiders.

Without the acceptance of the reality of the out of body experience, the Greyson scale means nothing much.

Not that it's particularly relevant to the OP's question, but I think it perfectly reasonable to separate the experience from the mechanics of how it occurs.

Possibly the same reason I'm afraid of spiders.

Max, you know  that's just trying to avoid conceding defeat. Let me remind you again, if they didn't really die (as you postulate because they came back) ..the experience that they had (the negative NDE) is nothing to do with real death (as you have said).

Therefore, to base their fears of their approaching final death  on a previous experience of nearly dying (as you would have it) would be illogical. You have stated that the NDE can tell us nothing about death and the afterlife!

Max_B Wrote:  [url=http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-to-nde-or-not-to-nde-re-done?pid=13529#pid13529][/url]As for an afterlife. I don’t think these experiences tell us anything either for, or against there being an afterlife.

Max, I like you but you're tying yourself up in knots trying to make your theory fit the data and I'm sorry but it doesn't and never will. 

We know very well WHY they are afraid of dying after a negative NDE because they know they really did die.

Not that it's particularly relevant to the OP's question, but I think it perfectly reasonable to separate the experience from the mechanics of how it occurs.

Without the OBE being accepted as a real separation of mind and brain then the NDE is reduced to a complex hallucination.
You don't accept that the OBE during NDE is real (a real separation).

Therefore, you are ignoring the most important element on the Greyson scale (because without an OBE the experience must be brain based) yet making a fuss about a few details that don't matter that much. Like I said, you're tying yourself up in knots. Why bother ? Why not put your energy and talent into something else.

We know very well WHY they are afraid of dying after a negative NDE because they know they really did die.

Lol

Like I said, you're tying yourself up in knots.

I don't actually think it's me tying myself up in knots ;-)

I don't actually think it's me tying myself up in knots ;-)

Well if that's your response (and the other LOL)  to what I've pointed out to you, then it's clear to me you're wedded to your theory and you are never going to abandon it. 

You haven't dealt with any of my previous points, you're just effectively 'sticking your fingers in your ears' and carrying on regardless. Nice.

Well if that's your response (and the other LOL)  to what I've pointed out to you, then it's clear to me you're wedded to your theory and you are never going to abandon it. 

You haven't dealt with any of my previous points, you're just effectively 'sticking your fingers in your ears' and carrying on regardless. Nice.

Lol... I rather think those observations are a better description of your own stance on these issues, than mine.

I’ve tried to remain very open to the evidence, and to keep trying to find a model with a better fit for the data, without dumping science’s observations. It’s over 10 years since I reengaged with these issues after having another strange experience. Prior to this I had spent many years trying to understand a handful of my childhood experiences which also did not fit with they way I’d been brought up to understand the world. There is just no point in me burying my head in the sand and ignoring the data, the issues do appear to be informational in nature, and mainly about how I access, process and store information. I believe we can keep all our observations, but we are going to have to have another round of generalising... new theories. After researching these issues for years, it’s clearer to me now than it has ever been, that information is probably stored very very differently from the way I experience the world. The way I experience the world is not the way that information is stored. The way I experience the world seems to be the ‘result’ gained from processing information, rather than the actual information itself. This leads me to have a profoundly different view of my experiences.

To revisit this thread, I was reading about a post where Linda was claiming there are a lot of NDEs that got the details in their OBEs wrong? What is to be thought about this? 

She often references Penny Sartori, who actually I believe took all the OBEs she could find reported, and found that the vast majority of them were dead on accurate. With only a few having "errors"