Some thoughts on the logic of 'Heaven would be boring' arguments

I wish that were true for me. I have not found peace because I doubt. Doubt the teachers, doubt the philosophies and, most of all, doubt myself. The other day I thought I had grasped what Spira was talking about but I hadn't. My instincts are not distinct. I don't know what to believe.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I don't have any direct response. It may simply be an individual journey and we are all in different places.

I'll add that during my childhood I often had the same feeling of peace that I have now. In that respect I don't think it is anything to do with acquiring knowledge. Perhaps it may be about letting go. During much of my life I have had a lot going on both inside and out, there have been rough times too, so perhaps I'm simply returning to the simplicity of my childhood state.

Perhaps it may be about letting go.

Indeed...

I wish that were true for me. I have not found peace because I doubt. Doubt the teachers, doubt the philosophies and, most of all, doubt myself. The other day I thought I had grasped what Spira was talking about but I hadn't. My instincts are not distinct. I don't know what to believe.

Does it actually matter what people like Spira talk about though ? At the risk of winding up Stan, Spira hasn't had an NDE or something approaching that or am I wrong ?

Does it actually matter what people like Spira talk about though ? At the risk of winding up Stan, Spira hasn't had an NDE or something approaching that or am I wrong ?

I think it would be a mistake to put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. I think the clues are widely spread. No one thing will bring all the answers imo. 

Imo Spira talks nonsense at times, at other times I find him inspiring. Maybe others would find the opposite for the same passages? 

If it helps, I think NDEs are probably the most interesting thing available. One problem is that humans have them! 

I think it would be a mistake to put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. I think the clues are widely spread. No one thing will bring all the answers imo. 

Imo Spira talks nonsense at times, at other times I find him inspiring. Maybe others would find the opposite for the same passages? 

If it helps, I think NDEs are probably the most interesting thing available. One problem is that humans have them! 

I agree, Stan. But I find well investigated (for authenticity) veridical NDE's (not just one, but hundreds) and the attached testimonies, very persuasive. Plus I've spoken to several people that have had them and I can be as certain as is possible that they aren't trying to deceive me. 

If by "humans have them" you mean there is a risk of error somewhere, of course there is. But when you get thousands of similar testimonies, then that room for error is greatly reduced to being practically not worth worrying about.

If it helps, I think NDEs are probably the most interesting thing available. One problem is that humans have them! 

Do you have any ideas of a solution, contacting aliens perhaps?

Spira... yuck is all I can say.

Well, Max, if that is all you can say it is hardly useful to those of us who are trying to grapple with the problems he appears to address. In other words, hardly worth saying. 


I have not yet formed a stable opinion about his teaching other than it seems to gel with what others have taught, be they of eastern or mystical traditions or western spiritual visionaries such as Tolle or Timothy Leary. I’ve never had a visionary experience but I feel it incumbent on me to afford those who have, or claim to have, the respect of listening to what they have learned from their experience. 

I don’t think that the NDE evidence is necessarily at odds with what Spira is saying other than, perhaps, the dissolution of the personality. He seems to be saying that this happens at, or shortly after physical death (after a sojourn in the bardo). That goes against most of what I have read over the many years of researching mediumistic, channeled and NDE evidence. He would claim, I think, that the NDE describes the bardo but I have always understood that enlightenment, if it is what he is leading us towards In his teaching, comes as a natural consequence of completing the reincarnational cycle. This is where my angst lies right now. What do I believe?

Generally speaking I do think ideas of "perfect heaven" are just wishful thinking. Outsourcing responsibility for your own happiness to someone/something else is a highly narcissistic and very pathetic ambition. Literally the equivalent of someone living on welfare who begrudgingly does their volunteer hours only so they can keep getting their cheques and get back to watching TV, playing video games, etc. Pure consumption. And if anything ever threatens that lifestyle, they are the first to point out all the nitty gritty little legal rules that say that, actually, they MUST keep getting their cheques, because "that's the law".

If you had absolute total power and control over everything you experienced without even the possibility of spontaneous challenge or resistance, how is that even real? And no, being able to put in your own challenges doesn't count, because they're not really there, you could take them away just as easily. Sure you could start putting in more absolute restrictions, but since they'd all be your choice how is that real? Sure you could make yourself forget, but then what was the point of getting there in the first place if you're just going to throw it all away? In order to stave off the boredom you'd inevitably need to change yourself to such a degree that you would become totally inert and arguably cease to exist.

Well, Max, if that is all you can say it is hardly useful to those of us who are trying to grapple with the problems he appears to address. In other words, hardly worth saying. 


I have not yet formed a stable opinion about his teaching other than it seems to gel with what others have taught, be they of eastern or mystical traditions or western spiritual visionaries such as Tolle or Timothy Leary. I’ve never had a visionary experience but I feel it incumbent on me to afford those who have, or claim to have, the respect of listening to what they have learned from their experience. 

I don’t think that the NDE evidence is necessarily at odds with what Spira is saying other than, perhaps, the dissolution of the personality. He seems to be saying that this happens at, or shortly after physical death (after a sojourn in the bardo). That goes against most of what I have read over the many years of researching mediumistic, channeled and NDE evidence. He would claim, I think, that the NDE describes the bardo but I have always understood that enlightenment, if it is what he is leading us towards In his teaching, comes as a natural consequence of completing the reincarnational cycle. This is where my angst lies right now. What do I believe?

I would wonder then, why NDEers generally report that messages and knowings they remember receiving from the Light or other spiritual beings don't say anything about an upcoming dissolution if they don't go back. It seems to me it's a special rationalization to assume this is because these spiritual beings either are deliberately deceiving, or ignorant, or illusory. No hint of this in the accounts, and it's counter-intuitive. It seems to me that it is much more likely that on this, Spira's teaching and certain spiritual traditions are based on human imagination.

A better understanding would be that there is a partial truth in it - the human personality remains, but but as a part of a vastly greater soul being that encompasses very many former personalities. In the transformation the human personality's consciousness progressively opens up to this higher reality of its true existence as a soul being, but in the process never truly loses itself. Presumably, mediumistic communications and deep NDEs only explore the very beginning stages of this process, obviously truncated in the case of the NDEers.