Seeing blindfolded

I think you overestimate how much attention scientists pay towards this sort of thing, and also how little interest there is generally in these communities to open themselves up to scientific inquiry (seen as attack by pseudoskeptics or government shills etc by some).. In my opinion there are probably tons of groups like this around the world that scientists will never hear about because they don't make themselves known to the scientific community.

Well, at any rate Rob Freeman and the others who posted those videos are making themselves known through YouTube, so perhaps we can look forward to independent testing of the claims. But in the absence of that I don't think the videos are conclusive of anything.

[Laird]

The trouble is that the demonstrations in the videos could be faked in other ways.

Sure. That, as seems to be often the case with psi effects that have been recorded or communicated in some way (whether by video, photograph, orally, or in writing), seems to be the only way in which they could be false: deliberate fraud/fakery on the part of the communicators (a video production team in this case).

Personally, I expect that that's not the case. In part, I expect this because I have had intimations of seeing with my eyes closed at times, and so, as with OBEs, of which I have also had intimations though no full blown experiences, I tend to grant that these phenomena are possible, and thus have no a priori reason to dismiss reports of them.

Sure. That, as seems to be often the case with psi effects that have been recorded or communicated in some way (whether by video, photograph, orally, or in writing), seems to be the only way in which they could be false: deliberate fraud/fakery on the part of the communicators (a video production team in this case).

Personally, I expect that that's not the case. In part, I expect this because I have had intimations of seeing with my eyes closed at times, and so, as with OBEs, of which I have also had intimations though no full blown experiences, I tend to grant that these phenomena are possible, and thus have no a priori reason to dismiss reports of them.

I would find it easier to be open to the possibility if it weren't being claimed that it was easy to learn ("with a few hours training") and reliable ("you will eventually be seeing as if you have no mask on"). Given that it isn't a new phenomenon, I think everyone would know about it by now if that were true. Here's a discussion of it from 1842:
https://books.google.com/books?id=wYecPS...&lpg=PA554

[Laird]

I would find it easier to be open to the possibility if it weren't being claimed that it was easy to learn ("with a few hours training") and reliable ("you will eventually be seeing as if you have no mask on").

But not all of the teachers in those videos did claim that. Certainly not of adults.

Given that it isn't a new phenomenon, I think everyone would know about it by now if that were true.

Well, even for phenomena which everybody does know about by now, and for which there is strong evidence, not everybody accepts them as real - so, how is this phenomenon different from the average parapsychological phenomenon [in that respect]?

Here's a discussion of it from 1842

Again, that discussion rests on the idea that the blindfold can be peeked through (under), and, again, as I keep on pointing out, some of the blindfolds used in the videos at issue simply don't allow for that possibility. So, that discussion is not relevant. Outright fraud seems to be the only possibility [for those who deny the reality of the phenomenon].

I would find it easier to be open to the possibility if it weren't being claimed that it was easy to learn ("with a few hours training") and reliable ("you will eventually be seeing as if you have no mask on"). Given that it isn't a new phenomenon, I think everyone would know about it by now if that were true. Here's a discussion of it from 1842:
https://books.google.com/books?id=wYecPS...&lpg=PA554

In the dojo video I believe they said they were on the fourth week of a course, so probably not a few hours or at least it takes a while to become good at it.

But not all of the teachers in those videos did claim that. Certainly not of adults.


Well, even for phenomena which everybody does know about by now, and for which there is strong evidence, not everybody accepts them as real - so, how is this phenomenon different from the average parapsychological phenomenon [in that respect]?


Again, that discussion rests on the idea that the blindfold can be peeked through (under), and, again, as I keep on pointing out, some of the blindfolds used in the videos at issue simply don't allow for that possibility. So, that discussion is not relevant. Outright fraud seems to be the only possibility [for those who deny the reality of the phenomenon].

I meant only that if it were really easy to learn and reliable that we should all know about it by now. As I said, I am more open to the possibility of a weaker phenomenon that isn't easy to learn.

The 1842 reference was just intended to illustrate how long such claims have been around.

[Laird]

I think it's worth having some annotations with respect to the videos that Psiclops posted in his opening post in the thread on Skeptiko, and even reposting them (embedded) here. I have watched all of them, so I figure I might as well go ahead and do that:

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Children With REAL SuperPowers (Third Eye)



This is a documentary by Frank Elaridi about children in England who have been trained by Nicola Farmer of the Inspiring Children Universally (ICU) Academy. In parts, they use the "MindFold" eye mask, which, so it seems, is impossible to see through in any way, as tested by one of Frank's skeptical crew members.

[ETA]: Also of interest in this video: one of the student's parents is interviewed by Frank on Skype, and she tells him how being taught at ICU has given her son not only a boost in confidence, but also access - when he practices - to various other psi faculties, such as the precognitive ability to correctly guess the colour of the next car to come around the bend, and to correctly guess both the identity and clothing of people who call his house on the phone (and I hope I'm remembering those details correctly - they are at least roughly correct, though I would have to rewatch the video to confirm).

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Girl demonstrates Cool SuperPower (Third Eye)



This is an earlier documentary also by Frank Elaridi, about Yogamaatha, a nine-year-old girl who trained under and was initiated by guru Nithyananda. The blindfolds which are used to cover her eyes do not seem to be as foolproof as the "MindFold" masks, but, in any case, she performs equally as well as the English kids in Frank's later documentary above.

[ETA]: Again, also of interest in this video is that Yogamaatha describes how being trained into this method of seeing whilst blindfolded has turned her from a shy girl into a confident one.

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ICU Introduction 2017




This is a video by Karen Osborne of ICU, the same organisation as of the first video documentary by Frank above. In this video, Karen introduces her student Katy (Katie?) and demonstrates that Katy can see even when her eyes are covered by a "MindFold".

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MUST WATCH! Blind People Use Third Eye Ability to See | SuperPower




This is a third documentary by - you guessed it - Frank Elaridi. It documents a martial arts teacher named Nate (Mike?) Zeleznik (?), who uses/teaches the Vibravision technique, and his successful students. Along with demonstrations by his students of effortless sight whilst blindfolded by "MindFold" masks, it also demonstrates Mike breaking a solid metal bar with only one finger. That Vibravision page claims that (as letseat mentioned in an earlier post):

Vibravision comes from the Indonesian Royal Family’s martial art called Merpati Putih or MP. Vibravision has been used as an orientation and mobility method by blind people in Indonesia for decades. It is also used by the Indonesian elite military special forces, called Kopassus, in place of night vision technology.

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Seeing Blindfolded Practice - Rob Freeman



Contains testimonials from students in Nikolay Denisov’s course. Does not (from what I recall) indicate which particular method Nikolay teaches. Does not contain any direct evidence of seeing whilst blindfolded.

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14. Rob gets over 25 Colours Correct & Starts To See Characters Now - Seeing Blindfolded



A video in which Rob Freeman... well, as per the title. Seems to be have been filmed by his wife, who is also testing him. He is wearing a "MindFold" mask. I'm not sure (can't remember) whether the video discloses which method, if any, he is using.

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So, there seem to be various different methods in use, and various different means of blindfolding students, with the "MindFold" mask seeming to be the most rigorous.

Now, letseat wrote earlier:

He's apparently attacking an entirely seperate branch of Indian mysticism than what the video in the thread with the dojo was presenting which is from Indonesia.

Presumably, letseat had in mind here the fourth video above, "MUST WATCH! Blind People Use Third Eye Ability to See | SuperPower", about the martial artist teacher who uses the Vibravision technique. However, potentially, Brian Dunning's critique applies to the second video, "Girl demonstrates Cool SuperPower (Third Eye)", about Yogamaatha in India. It is hard to know, because, from what I remember, the technique she was taught is not described in detail, however, I don't remember any references to "midbrain activation" in the video, and her guru, Nithyananda, is not mentioned in Brian's podcast.

[Laird]

In the dojo video I believe they said they were on the fourth week of a course, so probably not a few hours or at least it takes a while to become good at it.

Likewise, in the fifth video (about students of Nikolay Denisov’s course), by the fourth week of the course (in which - I think, but may have misremembered - the video was filmed), some of them were only just starting to get tentative results. Too, I seem to remember (and anybody who (re)watches it please correct me if my memory has failed me here) that Rob Freeman, in the sixth video, says he has been practising for a long time (in the realm of years?), and his skill seems to be at quite an initial level.

Girl demonstrates Cool SuperPower (Third Eye)



This is an earlier documentary also by Frank Elaridi, about Yogamaatha, a nine-year-old girl who trained under and was initiated by guru Nithyananda. The blindfolds which are used to cover her eyes do not seem to be as foolproof as the "MindFold" masks, but, in any case, she performs equally as well as the English kids in Frank's later documentary above.

[ETA]: Again, also of interest in this video is that Yogamaatha describes how being trained into this method of seeing whilst blindfolded has turned her from a shy girl into a confident one.

Nithyananda is certainly a very controversial figure whose organisation has been accused of faking this phenomenon:
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog...lText=true

[Laird]

Nithyananda is certainly a very controversial figure whose organisation has been accused of faking this phenomenon:
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog...lText=true

So it seems. And we do need to be careful about giving power to spiritual figures who might (and sometimes do) turn out to be "all too human". But, on the other hand, I don't think that that article establishes anything definitively (and I read it all the way through).