Psience Quest Interview No. 1: Titus Rivas

I hope this is an indication that you are willing to stick around and continue contributing to the forum in general, Titus!

Re your suggestion that the results of Cleve Backster, as replicated by the Mythbusters team, are due to PK rather than telepathy, I suppose I can only say that this seems to fly in the face of all of the other behaviour of plants that points to a sense of self/awareness. To take a striking example, I would recommend checking out the video that I linked to in a post in another thread in which two plants compete for a hold, and when one of them gets there first, the second visibly gives up.

In any case, we both agree that even if plants are sentient, there is a form of vegan diet (fruitarianism) that can accommodate this, so clearly this can't be used as an argument against veganism.

I've watched the interesting video, Laird, and agree with those who hold that the "behavior" is most probably not driven by real emotions or moods. Instead, it is much more plausible to explain the behavior by purely non-sentient information processing. A robot seems to "behave" quite flexibly as well and there is absolutely no reason to believe robots have any type of mind either - just a computational imitation of a real mind linked to a self's inner life. 
Perhaps some of the "behavior" in plants should be explained by Sheldrakian morphogenetic fields, but again, that is not the same as minds. So maybe physical life is not reducible to physics and chemistry after all. There may be vitalist or holistic processes involved, which would include quite advanced levels of non-sentient computation.

As I told you before, I'm not a panpsychist, so mere complexity of responding or processing for me does not mean there must be a real mind as well. There is non-conscious, so-called "embodied" computation both in living systems and in artificial systems, and then there are real minds that are not literally embodied but rather interacting with a physical system (such as the brain). That is why I take seriously the possibility that even some lower animal species are non-sentient. Materialists and panpsychists believe that all mental processes are "embodied", which seems quite rational if you start from their ontologies, but as a radical substance dualist I simply disagree with them.

Then, as I stressed before, even if we accept that plants are sentient (which I still don't), this does not mean that plants can suffer in terms of pain and fear. So for me, it still would not mean I have to abstain from eating plants.

Titus

[Laird]

Thank you, Titus, for responding. This in turn will be my last response on this issue, because I think we've both made our views clear enough, and I don't want to disrespect an interview guest by forcing him into a debate.

it is much more plausible to explain the behavior by purely non-sentient information processing.

When I watch that plant visibly droop as it realises that it has been out-manoeuvred by a competing plant, I really find it hard to put this down to mere information processing. It is such a relatable response - a human might do something very similar in the same circumstances. You can see the plant slump in despondency. And I don't think I'm anthropomorphising - this is a living being, just like us, and it's not unreasonable to conclude that similar behaviour to ours in other living beings is motivated by a similiar sense of self and emotionality.

Anyhow, as I said, that's over and out for me on this particular issue. Please feel free to have the last word if you care to. And thanks again for your courteous engagement in this thread.

I don't think I'm anthropomorphising - this is a living being, just like us, and it's not unreasonable to conclude that similar behaviour to ours in other living beings is motivated by a similiar sense of self and emotionality.

Anyhow, as I said, that's over and out for me on this particular issue. Please feel free to have the last word if you care to. And thanks again for your courteous engagement in this thread.

Hi Laird, thank you for your interesting contributions too!

Regarding the question of anthropomorphising, I simply would like to remark that explaining plant behavior in terms of mood or emotion, because it is a living being, for me sounds like begging the question. They're living beings, nobody is denying that of course. The question is however whether every living being is sentient. 

Maybe what seems like an emotional response is simply the result of an in-built program, triggered by non-sentient computation, that helps the plant to save energy, after it has become clear it can't win. 

Anyway, good for you that you're trying to be a fruitarian. I really respect that, Laird!

Best wishes,

Titus

There is a very simple and plausible  explanation for the prevalence of stories of pets, namely that people are mostly interested in the survival of the animals they have known and loved, and, in turn, such animals are the ones motivated to contact them after they have died. So, from a psychological point of view, we'd expect most (animal) ADCs to concern such animals. 

However there certainly are cases of haunted places etc. involving animals that weren't pets. For instance, see these animal ghosts in Britain.

As for vengeful victims of hunters, I think such a scenario says more about repressed guilt in hunters, than about the nature of most prey animals. 
Anyway, we don't need vengeance from its victims, to morally condemn hunting unequivocally! Let's not forget it's 2017, not prehistorical times.

Well, it's probably is not a good idea to post music videos in an intellectual discussion, but I can't help myself.   The notion of vengeful animal spirits reminds me too strongly of these two pieces of audiovisual art...

Intriguing and relevant videos, Vortex, with a catchy melody and beat!

Here is another video, which is probably meant to be a bit less serious, but still deals with similar important issues: Cows with guns

Talking about relevant pop music, here is a list of contemporary Vegan & vegetarian pop stars/musicians

[Ninshub]

Sorry to interrupt the conversation but I'm wondering if we shouldn't create a sub-forum called Psience Quest Interviews, and move this thread there, to give this interview (and hopefully future such endeavours) more visibility.

Sorry to interrupt the conversation but I'm wondering if we shouldn't create a sub-forum called Psience Quest Interviews, and move this thread there, to give this interview (and hopefully future such endeavours) more visibility.

Have you figured out how to move a thread? I was looking at that the other day and couldn't find how.

[Ninshub]

Just figured it out right now and did it. Moved to a new sub-forum called Psience Quest Interviews in the ECP forum. I'll tell you how I did it outside this thread, David.

[Laird]

Titus, another set of related question for you if you're still around:

What's your position on the abolitionist versus welfarist controversy? And should we publicly praise companies that switch from cage eggs to free-range eggs? If not, what should our response to such a decision be?