Placebo

On another thread, Steve001 posted a link to a YouTube video about homeopathy. Among other things, it mentioned the placebo effect, and explained it in these terms: "If people believe that something will help them feel better, their trust alone has the desired effect. And it's been proven that the placebo effect can be transferred. Children and animals rely on their parents or keepers and are in tune to their emotions. If a parent has a lot of trust in a treatment and eases up, this can help a child relax and help relieve symptoms. This can also be observed with animals, who react strongly to the body language cues of the people caring for them."

I asked whether there was really any evidence that the placebo effect worked as stated, and whether its operation could actually be explained in conventional terms. I think probably that question deserves its own thread.

There's an interesting article by Maj-Britt Niemi here. It's entitled, "Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind", and was originally published in Scientific American Mind in 2009:
http://web.as.uky.edu/statistics/users/r...oStudy.pdf

It suggests that things aren't really as simple as suggested in the voice-over of the video, and that while there are some pointers to how the effect works, the mechanism is far from being understood. For one thing, the article stresses the importance of subconscious factors as well as conscious belief in the treatment. It also emphasises the phenomenon of conditioning, in which - for example - if an active drug is initially administered together with a flavoured drink, and afterwards a placebo is given with the same drink, the therapeutic effect continues (which it does not if the placebo is given with water instead). This has been demonstrated in both animals and humans.

The article also summarises investigations of the mechanism of pain relief, which seems quite complicated. It suggests that when there is a conscious expectation of pain relief, it occurs through the release of opioids that occur naturally in the body. But when conditioning is used, without a conscious expectation of pain relief, opioids don't seem to be involved - "the conditioned effect ... seems to work in the same manner as whatever analgesic is used in the conditioning". And to complicate factors further, there is evidence that when there is a conscious expectation of pain relief, there is a suppression of activity in areas of the brain that sense pain. There seems to be very little about the actual mechanisms by which any of this happens. The mechanism seems particularly difficult to imagine in the case of a flavoured drink mimicking the chemical effect of an analgesic after conditioning - but maybe that's just due to my ignorance ...

On another thread, Steve001 posted a link to a YouTube video about homeopathy. Among other things, it mentioned the placebo effect, and explained it in these terms: "If people believe that something will help them feel better, their trust alone has the desired effect. And it's been proven that the placebo effect can be transferred. Children and animals rely on their parents or keepers and are in tune to their emotions. If a parent has a lot of trust in a treatment and eases up, this can help a child relax and help relieve symptoms. This can also be observed with animals, who react strongly to the body language cues of the people caring for them."

I asked whether there was really any evidence that the placebo effect worked as stated, and whether its operation could actually be explained in conventional terms. I think probably that question deserves its own thread.

There's an interesting article by Maj-Britt Niemi here. It's entitled, "Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind", and was originally published in Scientific American Mind in 2009:
http://web.as.uky.edu/statistics/users/r...oStudy.pdf

It suggests that things aren't really as simple as suggested in the voice-over of the video, and that while there are some pointers to how the effect works, the mechanism is far from being understood. For one thing, the article stresses the importance of subconscious factors as well as conscious belief in the treatment. It also emphasises the phenomenon of conditioning, in which - for example - if an active drug is initially administered together with a flavoured drink, and afterwards a placebo is given with the same drink, the therapeutic effect continues (which it does not if the placebo is given with water instead). This has been demonstrated in both animals and humans.

The article also summarises investigations of the mechanism of pain relief, which seems quite complicated. It suggests that when there is a conscious expectation of pain relief, it occurs through the release of opioids that occur naturally in the body. But when conditioning is used, without a conscious expectation of pain relief, opioids don't seem to be involved - "the conditioned effect ... seems to work in the same manner as whatever analgesic is used in the conditioning". And to complicate factors further, there is evidence that when there is a conscious expectation of pain relief, there is a suppression of activity in areas of the brain that sense pain. There seems to be very little about the actual mechanisms by which any of this happens. The mechanism seems particularly difficult to imagine in the case of a flavoured drink mimicking the chemical effect of an analgesic after conditioning - but maybe that's just due to my ignorance ...

In keeping with the general trends of this forum which I believe you're hinting what evidence is there for non-unconventional terms?

In keeping with the general trends of this forum which I believe you're hinting what evidence is there for non-unconventional terms?

Well, reading that account of the placebo effect shrinking tumours by 50% in three days, I wonder what the conventional explanation would be. 

The original report by Bruno Klopfer doesn't seem to be available online, but there are extensive extracts here:
https://www.wddty.com/magazine/2006/febr...ine-1.html

Well, reading that account of the placebo effect shrinking tumours by 50% in three days, I wonder what the conventional explanation would be. 

The original report by Bruno Klopfer doesn't seem to be available online, but there are extensive extracts here:
https://www.wddty.com/magazine/2006/febr...ine-1.html

A real mystery. But why go looking for the non-unconventional when all that will accomplish is made up explanation? I like mystery because one never knows what will be learned when the mystery is solved.

A real mystery. But why go looking for the non-unconventional when all that will accomplish is made up explanation? I like mystery because one never knows what will be learned when the mystery is solved.

In the first instance I was looking for a conventional explanation, but it doesn't appear there is one, except in the broadest terms.

Regarding the example given by Klopfer, I found the case report reprinted in a book on spontaneous remission compiled for the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which is available here:
http://noetic.org/research/projects/spon...-remission

The report is in Appendix 2, on pp. 533, 534, and is prefaced by a summary of Klopfer's paper. (NB The online extracts I linked to above seem to be partly synopsis and partly quotation with not all the ellipses indicated.)

[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_1.jpg]
[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_2.jpg]
[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_3.jpg]

In the first instance I was looking for a conventional explanation, but it doesn't appear there is one, except in the broadest terms.

Regarding the example given by Klopfer, I found the case report reprinted in a book on spontaneous remission compiled for the Institute of Noetic Sciences, which is available here:
http://noetic.org/research/projects/spon...-remission

The report is in Appendix 2, on pp. 533, 534, and is prefaced by a summary of Klopfer's paper. (NB The online extracts I linked to above seem to be partly synopsis and partly quotation with not all the ellipses indicated.)

[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_1.jpg]
[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_2.jpg]
[Image: Noetic_Klopfer_3.jpg]

Spontaneous Remission is a very odd phenomena but again I see no reason to invoke those type (mystical) explanations that would be coming from that institution that would be a dead end.

Spontaneous Remission is a very odd phenomena but again I see no reason to invoke those type (mystical) explanations that would be coming from that institution that would be a dead end.

You seem to be the only person talking about mystical explanations!

As to whether this remission was "spontaneous", apparently it was in the sense that it couldn't be explained conventionally. But if the report is accurate, it suggests a strong correlation of the progress (or regress) of the disease with the patient's state of mind.

You seem to be the only person talking about mystical explanations!

As to whether this remission was "spontaneous", apparently it was in the sense that it couldn't be explained conventionally. But if the report is accurate, it suggests a strong correlation of the progress (or regress) of the disease with the patient's state of mind.

I think the problem here is a misunderstanding because of the nature of this forum, what the word mind means and your indirect sourcing of the Noetic organization leads me to the assumption that the answer can be found through immaterialism. That assumption is wrong. 

It is very curious how ones state of mind can affect in some cases how cancers progress.

A bit of background for the case of Mr Wright. 

According to Wikipedia, the AMA's critical report on Krebiozen (to which the final relapse was attributed) appeared in October 1951. 

Philip M. West appears to have been reasonably prominent. In November 1950 he was described as the head of the California Institute of Cancer Research at UCLA (where Klopfer was a professor of psychology) [The Van Nuys News, 6 Nov 1950, at newspapers.com]. On 14 April 1952 the Los Angeles Times reported on research by him and his colleagues on the relationship between personality type and the progression of cancer:

[Image: LATimes_1952_1.jpg]
[Image: LATimes_1952_2.jpg]