New study on dying rats finds DMT in the brain

Hi all! I post it here because it is not directly correlated to NDEs.  A very recent study found out that relatively high quantities of DMT can be found in rat brains following CA.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w

But, regarding NDEs, shouldn't the visual cortex be pretty much "offline" following cardiac arrest? As far as I know, the EEG goes flat in a matter of seconds, one minute at most. And it doesn't seem that veridical NDEs all happen in that first minute or so.

Hi all! I post it here because it is not directly correlated to NDEs.  A very recent study found out that relatively high quantities of DMT can be found in rat brains following CA.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w

But, regarding NDEs, shouldn't the visual cortex be pretty much "offline" following cardiac arrest? As far as I know, the EEG goes flat in a matter of seconds, one minute at most. And it doesn't seem that veridical NDEs all happen in that first minute or so.

Maybe Parnia could administer DMT to his patients after their hearts have stopped and see if they can describe what is occurring in the room and also possibly what is currently on his lap-top target screen.  Studies like this are interesting but I don't see the connection with veridical OBE's during cardiac arrest, leaving aside the massive leaps that have to be taken to assume rats are conscious like us and have NDE's themselves in the first place.

Parnia has said that it doesn't matter what drugs or chemicals are floating around in the brain. If it is shut down through lack of oxygen or lack of nutrients, it won't be having any conscious experience in any case.

Hi all! I post it here because it is not directly correlated to NDEs.  A very recent study found out that relatively high quantities of DMT can be found in rat brains following CA.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w

But, regarding NDEs, shouldn't the visual cortex be pretty much "offline" following cardiac arrest? As far as I know, the EEG goes flat in a matter of seconds, one minute at most. And it doesn't seem that veridical NDEs all happen in that first minute or so.

Interesting study.

Just some corrections, as far as we know, in the "cardiac arrests" which are found in humans, the EEG does not go flat in a matter of seconds. "Cardiac arrest" is a catch-all term for a variety of conditions which require resuscitation to survive. EEGs taken during those conditions (including asystole (no cardiac activity)) show EEG changes, sometimes within 10s of seconds, but often not a "flat line". And the intent of chest compressions is to maintain perfusion to vital organs, particularly the brain, so studies show that the EEG is also often not flat during the resuscitation process, which is also the period during which "veridical NDEs" are often reported. I realize that NDE researchers like van Pimmel have stated that EEGs are flat, despite what the research shows. And that these "words of wisdom" get passed on by proponents as "facts". I had an email conversation with van Pimmel in which he conceded that by "flat" he meant that there was reduced power in the EEG and it was his guess [not based on research, knowledge or experience] that the reduced power would be inadequate for full-blown consciousness [which nobody is claiming, anyways]. 

And note that people who have survived "cardiac arrest" report a wide variety of experiences from the time of their arrest (most are not classic NDEs), that NDE researchers are happy to call "hallucinations" whenever those experiences don't happen to involve a spiritual component. Those experiences are otherwise indistinguishable from "NDEs", so the various biochemical insults which can cause "hallucinations" seem to be at play in NDE as well. Nobody has disproven that these biochemical insults aren't involved (unless Parnia comes up with something in his EEG study which distinguishes the type of experience on a physiological basis). What we know is that NDEers have the same kinds of physiological abnormalities as those whose experiences were classed as hallucinations, and that, like hallucinations, there are a variety of causes whose presence differs from case to case. So when people say "anoxia" is not the cause, they mean that anoxia wasn't always present in those who had experiences during cardiac arrest (it was some other insult), or that of the people who had anoxia and who had experiences during cardiac arrest, some of those experiences were "NDEs" and some of those experiences weren't "NDEs". That "anoxia" is not necessary or sufficient as a cause of "NDE", just like it isn't a necessary or sufficient cause of those experiences which NDE researchers call "hallucinations", doesn't mean anything from a scientific point of view.

Linda

Interesting study.

Just some corrections, as far as we know, in the "cardiac arrests" which are found in humans, the EEG does not go flat in a matter of seconds. "Cardiac arrest" is a catch-all term for a variety of conditions which require resuscitation to survive. EEGs taken during those conditions (including asystole (no cardiac activity)) show EEG changes, sometimes within 10s of seconds, but often not a "flat line". And the intent of chest compressions is to maintain perfusion to vital organs, particularly the brain, so studies show that the EEG is also often not flat during the resuscitation process, which is also the period during which "veridical NDEs" are often reported. I realize that NDE researchers like van Pimmel have stated that EEGs are flat, despite what the research shows. And that these "words of wisdom" get passed on by proponents as "facts". I had an email conversation with van Pimmel in which he conceded that by "flat" he meant that there was reduced power in the EEG and it was his guess [not based on research, knowledge or experience] that the reduced power would be inadequate for full-blown consciousness [which nobody is claiming, anyways]. 

And note that people who have survived "cardiac arrest" report a wide variety of experiences from the time of their arrest (most are not classic NDEs), that NDE researchers are happy to call "hallucinations" whenever those experiences don't happen to involve a spiritual component. Those experiences are otherwise indistinguishable from "NDEs", so the various biochemical insults which can cause "hallucinations" seem to be at play in NDE as well. Nobody has disproven that these biochemical insults aren't involved (unless Parnia comes up with something in his EEG study which distinguishes the type of experience on a physiological basis). What we know is that NDEers have the same kinds of physiological abnormalities as those whose experiences were classed as hallucinations, and that, like hallucinations, there are a variety of causes whose presence differs from case to case. So when people say "anoxia" is not the cause, they mean that anoxia wasn't always present in those who had experiences during cardiac arrest (it was some other insult), or that of the people who had anoxia and who had experiences during cardiac arrest, some of those experiences were "NDEs" and some of those experiences weren't "NDEs". That "anoxia" is not necessary or sufficient as a cause of "NDE", just like it isn't a necessary or sufficient cause of those experiences which NDE researchers call "hallucinations", doesn't mean anything from a scientific point of view.

Linda

I suppose you are referring to Van Lommel. He is a cardiologist, it would be really unprofessional of him to state that the EEG goes flat while in reality it does not. And wasn't this "EEG goes flat" repeated by other MDs such as Sam Parnia or Michael Sabom?

EDIT: probably Parnia is taking EEG readings just to be sure that there are no similar problems during AWARE II

I suppose you are referring to Van Lommel. He is a cardiologist, it would be really unprofessional of him to state that the EEG goes flat while in reality it does not. And wasn't this "EEG goes flat" repeated by other MDs such as Sam Parnia or Michael Sabom?

EDIT: probably Parnia is taking EEG readings just to be sure that there are no similar problems during AWARE II

This link will lead to a study of what 9 peoples brains were doing before and up to terminal depolarization (complete brain death).
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-w...fter-death
From this study alone it's reasonable to say there's brain activity prior to complete brain death. And not reasonable to state as fact in all cases the brain turns off like a light bulb. Apparently the brain is determined to stay alive until it can't.

P.S. In another thread which of which i don't  remember something to the effect fear of death was the point you thought I was making. That wasn't my point. This thread makes the point clearly. https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-death-is-the-end

I suppose you are referring to Van Lommel. He is a cardiologist, it would be really unprofessional of him to state that the EEG goes flat while in reality it does not.

Yes, for some reason, I always manage to screw up his name.  There isn't anything preventing him from saying stuff that is wrong. Besides, cardiologists deal with EKGs, not EEGs, so that's not particularly relevant.

And wasn't this "EEG goes flat" repeated by other MDs such as Sam Parnia or Michael Sabom?

It matters much more what the research shows. People can and do say all sorts of stuff which is incorrect.

Regardless of what any of them say, what's more important is to look at what the findings were in studies where this was undertaken. For example, read the references in Van Lommel's NDE study:

http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...3&page=821

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3369769

EDIT: probably Parnia is taking EEG readings just to be sure that there are no similar problems during AWARE II

I think he's trying to collect actual facts, instead of speculation.

Linda

Yes, for some reason, I always manage to screw up his name.  There isn't anything preventing him from saying stuff that is wrong. Besides, cardiologists deal with EKGs, not EEGs, so that's not particularly relevant.


It matters much more what the research shows. People can and do say all sorts of stuff which is incorrect.

Regardless of what any of them say, what's more important is to look at what the findings were in studies where this was undertaken. For example, read the references in Van Lommel's NDE study:

http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...3&page=821

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3369769



I think he's trying to collect actual facts, instead of speculation.

Linda

Surely, Dr Parnia is trying to be as precise as possible during his work, that's why the EEG monitoring matters. According to his last speech, he found pretty much absence of EEG outside of relatively few cases of seizure-like activity, which isn't unheard of I think. The more AWARE II keeps going, the more infos we'll get out of it anyway.

It is unknown whether the concentrations of DMT reported in our study at cardiac arrest can elicit the effects of an exogenous psychedelic dose of DMT

Well, that seems one study away from a remedy.

I suppose you are referring to Van Lommel. He is a cardiologist, it would be really unprofessional of him to state that the EEG goes flat while in reality it does not. And wasn't this "EEG goes flat" repeated by other MDs such as Sam Parnia or Michael Sabom?

EDIT: probably Parnia is taking EEG readings just to be sure that there are no similar problems during AWARE II

Linda's post is just a load of gobbledegook, Raf.  She loves nothing more than twisting facts and sowing doubt to muddy the waters. Honestly, it's her favourite pastime, but don't take my word for it, send her post to Van Lommel. He'll reply when he has the time if you are polite and phrase the question clearly.