NDEs and Evolution

Always found this an interesting article about the evolutionary explanation for NDEs, and it's mutual shortcomings with other hallicination explanations for the experiences. Off of Michael Prescott's blog: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/micha...-ndes.html

Some skeptics, acknowledging this issue, speculate that somehow the brain is hardwired to produce this experience under stress. There is no evidence to support this speculation. Nor is it clear how such a capability could have evolved in the first place, since it has no clear survival value and only kicks in when the person is dying (or very near death, or in a severe crisis). How could such a capability even be passed on from one generation to another, and what would be the point of it? Are we supposed to assume that, every once in a great while, a human being had a near-death experience but survived, and then produced offspring whose brains were similarly wired, and that this mutation was sufficiently valuable that it persisted and spread throughout the entire population? In what way would such a mutation have any biological utility? How would it increase any individual's chance of survival and reproduction?

Or perhaps we are supposed to assume that this hardwiring is a mere fluke, a random development that somehow took hold across our species even though it offers no particular evolutionary advantage. There are evolutionary developments that seem to be essentially pointless and random, yet persist for no clear reason. But it strains credulity to think that an experience as rich, elaborate, and meaningful as an NDE  is a purely random byproduct of evolutionary change. If the experience were indeed random and arbitrary, then its content could be almost anything; yet, as we see, the content tends to be reasonably consistent and to follow the same general pattern or structure. What is more, the content and pattern are consistent with our highest spiritual yearnings and aspirations.

To me, the evolutionary explanation doesn't solve much more then the usual "dying brain" excuse. Just because you chuck it all up to being random, it doesn't help in figuring out what the mechanism is behind the experience. You still gotta find something to produce it, no matter how it came around. 

Plus, any hallicination explanation is going to fall flat on it's face for other reasons. But that's another story

Playing devil's advocate here... the brain can produce a kind of out of body experience under stress in some people.  Whether or not it is the same process going on, I can't say because I don't know of any studies being done on this.  As far as I am aware, evolution is a purposeless process and any survival value is just a bonus, so there is no point in looking for a purpose.  Instincts, although being complex, are built on a simple sliding scale: we run from death, fear and pain towards life, happiness and pleasure.  Given this, an evolutionary mechanism to make the passing into death easier might serve as an explaination. 

I don't believe in much of what I just wrote, and I leapt from purposeless evolution to having a purpose (just like evolutionists do ), but this would make some kind of loose sense to me if it wasn't for other evidence.

Playing devil's advocate here... the brain can produce a kind of out of body experience under stress in some people. 

Though I think I understand what you mean, are we really sure that the brain is the cause, rather than the effect? Maybe you could elaborate on the circumstances you have in mind.

As an aside, I've had (in the past) a few minor out-of body experiences. It isn't something I'm currently working on. There was no stress involved, quite the contrary, nor any medical or emotional crisis.

Though I think I understand what you mean, are we really sure that the brain is the cause, rather than the effect? Maybe you could elaborate on the circumstances you have in mind.

As an aside, I've had (in the past) a few minor out-of body experiences. It isn't something I'm currently working on. There was no stress involved, quite the contrary, nor any medical or emotional crisis.

You are right, we are not sure it is the brain but from a materialists perspective, I can't see any other option.  There are a number of cases (and a friend of mine in England is one) where under stressful circumstances people have experienced looking down on themselves from outside for a period of time.  Sometimes in these cases a person has been known to witness their body committing a crime (or at least the claim is used in their defense)  I think it is called "Autoscopia" in the medical field, but as I said, I don't know if it is the same process at work as in NDEs.

EDIT:  it's called Autoscopy and it appears they make a distinction between it and OBEs.
"Heautoscopy (HAS) : intermediate form between autoscopic hallucination and OBE"
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phen...1_47784713

You are right, we are not sure it is the brain but from a materialists perspective, I can't see any other option.  There are a number of cases (and a friend of mine in England is one) where under stressful circumstances people have experienced looking down on themselves from outside for a period of time.  Sometimes in these cases a person has been known to witness their body committing a crime (or at least the claim is used in their defense)  I think it is called "Autoscopia" in the medical field, but as I said, I don't know if it is the same process at work as in NDEs.

EDIT:  it's called Autoscopy and it appears they make a distinction between it and OBEs.
"Heautoscopy (HAS) : intermediate form between autoscopic hallucination and OBE"
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Phen...1_47784713

I've always been of the opinion that these cases happen in a kind of "stuck in between" spot between our usual unconscious state and whatever state we enter in we truly our out of body. Hence why the experiences are fragmentary and rather bizarre like a hallucination, since you are almost in a "glitched" state. If that makes any sense

Like Typoz is saying, it's an effect of being a perculiar altered state that isn't totally like the one you are in during a NDE or a true OBE, but is one that comes from being almost on the way to one. Or something

I've always been of the opinion that these cases happen in a kind of "stuck in between" spot between our usual unconscious state and whatever state we enter in we truly our out of body. Hence why the experiences are fragmentary and rather bizarre like a hallucination, since you are almost in a "glitched" state. If that makes any sense

Yeah, I can see how that would work.

My sister popped out of her body at a stressful interview and was looking down on her an the interviewer. Personally I think it is ones sense-of-self which has relocated. according to the sensory data one has access to. Thus I would say my sister somehow gained some sort of access/awareness to some sensory data from the interviewer. Her sense of self therefore relocated quite naturally to take account of this additional information.

That's interesting, Max but as you will know, not that uncommon. Her brain was working of course so unless she saw something that she couldn't possibly have seen, it remains only interesting, for me anyway.

Always found this an interesting article about the evolutionary explanation for NDEs, and it's mutual shortcomings with other hallicination explanations for the experiences. Off of Michael Prescott's blog: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/micha...-ndes.html



To me, the evolutionary explanation doesn't solve much more then the usual "dying brain" excuse. Just because you chuck it all up to being random, it doesn't help in figuring out what the mechanism is behind the experience. You still gotta find something to produce it, no matter how it came around. 

Plus, any hallicination explanation is going to fall flat on it's face for other reasons. But that's another story

He has that ability to get to the crux of the matter, doesn't he. I only wish I could "sit" Malf down and go through the whole post, point by point