he smiled ...

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I am not a believer that NDEs are paranormal but I certainly believe something happens and that's worthy of study.

My grandfather woke up smiled at died.

What did he see? I don't know.

He had a DE. So, no idea can come across as to what made him smile. We can't ask him.

I think what happens is simikar to what drugs, sleep deprivation and even afixation due to ppl.
The brain, deprived of oxygen creates lucid experience while it's in a process of shutting down. But
I can't prpve my suspicion. It's perfectly possible my family witnessed something paranormal.
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(2021-10-19, 08:04 PM)entangled_cat Wrote: I am not a believer that NDEs are paranormal but I certainly believe something happens and that's worthy of study.

My grandfather woke up smiled at died.

What did he see? I don't know.

He had a DE. So, no idea can come across as to what made him smile. We can't ask him.

I think what happens is simikar to what drugs, sleep deprivation and even afixation due to ppl.
The brain, deprived of oxygen creates lucid experience while it's in a process of shutting down. But
I can't prpve my suspicion. It's perfectly possible my family witnessed something paranormal.

Perhaps you could describe what you do believe? I mean, how would you define your philosophical position? Moreover, how would you define "paranormal"? Do you, for example, hold the view that science precludes the paranormal and by that I mean precludes as in "impossible"? Or would you prefer to say that science cannot investigate the paranormal because the scope of science is confined to that which is deemed "natural"?

Meanwhile, I'm sure that our @tim  will chime in and challenge your anoxia theory and give you a good argument. Your grandfather seems to have had a Steve Jobs moment at death which is consistent with many terminal lucidity reports.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
(This post was last modified: 2021-10-19, 09:19 PM by Kamarling.)
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(2021-10-19, 09:18 PM)Kamarling Wrote: Perhaps you could describe what you do believe? I mean, how would you define your philosophical position? Moreover, how would you define "paranormal"? Do you, for example, hold the view that science precludes the paranormal and by that I mean precludes as in "impossible"? Or would you prefer to say that science cannot investigate the paranormal because the scope of science is confined to that which is deemed "natural"?

Meanwhile, I'm sure that our @tim  will chime in and challenge your anoxia theory and give you a good argument. Your grandfather seems to have had a Steve Jobs moment at death which is consistent with many terminal lucidity reports.


Excellent questions!

Yes, I assume he had an experience many NDE accounts describe. Obviously, for him t have smiled, some euphoria was experienced.

What do I think is paranormal or supernatural? To be honest, I don't know. If I made a definition before quantum mechanics was discovered, perhaps quantum effects would feel supernatural to me.

What do I believe? Complicated question. Simple answer. I am a maternalist but you've
already established the limits of that label.

Focus on NDEs. I believe qualia is real. I don't think we can directly measure it. You call it
consciousness. It's amazing, it's material but we cannot measure it. It seems to be product 
of our brains. We can alter people's perception by physical means. I think complete death is
really boring. What's amszing is life, that ppl feel is mundane.
(2021-10-20, 12:16 AM)entangled_cat Wrote:  It's amazing, it's material but we cannot measure it. It seems to be product 
of our brains. We can alter people's perception by physical means. 


Ahh, then you will find plenty of arguments here, if that's what you are looking for. Materialists are pretty thin on the ground around here and those who joined us from Skeptiko seem to have mostly slipped into the background of late.

For that reason, I can't accept your assertion that consciousness is material or merely a product of our brains. I'd do a little searching and reading past threads if you would like to get a taste of the general discussion around that subject. You will find that there's no shortage of them. I am, of course, assuming that you are new here because I am not familiar with your username but please excuse me if my assumption is mistaken. I also hope you'll forgive me if I don't take you up on the other observation that we can alter perception by physical means. I could spend the next hour on that alone but I have done so ad nauseam in other discussions and, to be frank, I don't feel like repeating myself right now.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2021-10-19, 08:04 PM)entangled_cat Wrote: I am not a believer that NDEs are paranormal but I certainly believe something happens and that's worthy of study.

My grandfather woke up smiled at died.

What did he see? I don't know.

He had a DE. So, no idea can come across as to what made him smile. We can't ask him.

I think what happens is simikar to what drugs, sleep deprivation and even afixation due to ppl.
The brain, deprived of oxygen creates lucid experience while it's in a process of shutting down. But
I can't prpve my suspicion. It's perfectly possible my family witnessed something paranormal.

Thanks for sharing your / your grandfather's experience. Of course the person whose life is coming to an end is in at the deep end when it comes to engaging with their own experience. There is a whole research topic in this area loosely termed 'Deathbed Visions' a background article on the topic can be found here: https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/artic...s-research

Penny Sartori as a new student nurse recalled her very first day on the ward. During the handover between shifts, the night nurse just casually said "The man in bed 6, he'll be dead by the end of the morning because he's been talking to his dead mother since 3 o'clock this morning". Penny thought they were saying that to spook her or to wind her up (because she was new) and she looked around, the other nurses just carried on writing as if it was perfectly normal.

But it's better to hear Penny herself describe it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZkZacc7_tI&t=1297s

It's well worth watching that clip - from roughly 21mins 40 sec. She also describes the passing of her own grandfather which resonates with the topic of this thread.

I know from my own experiences around the dying of each of my parents, that as well as the emotional impact of the loss of a loved one, there can be a whole range of experiences for the surviving people too. There is a lot of intensity around the time of passing and there may be experiences then. Some other experiences can take place days, months or years afterwards - there can be continuing interactions. It is a big subject and I cannot do justice to it here.
(This post was last modified: 2021-10-20, 08:57 AM by Typoz.)
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thanks for that. Wink.
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(2021-10-20, 08:49 AM)Typoz Wrote: Thanks for sharing your / your grandfather's experience. Of course the person whose life is coming to an end is in at the deep end when it comes to engaging with their own experience. There is a whole research topic in this area loosely termed 'Deathbed Visions' a background article on the topic can be found here: https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/artic...s-research

Penny Sartori as a new student nurse recalled her very first day on the ward. During the handover between shifts, the night nurse just casually said "The man in bed 6, he'll be dead by the end of the morning because he's been talking to his dead mother since 3 o'clock this morning". Penny thought they were saying that to spook her or to wind her up (because she was new) and she looked around, the other nurses just carried on writing as if it was perfectly normal.

But it's better to hear Penny herself describe it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZkZacc7_tI&t=1297s

It's well worth watching that clip - from roughly 21mins 40 sec. She also describes the passing of her own grandfather which resonates with the topic of this thread.

I know from my own experiences around the dying of each of my parents, that as well as the emotional impact of the loss of a loved one, there can be a whole range of experiences for the surviving people too. There is a lot of intensity around the time of passing and there may be experiences then. Some other experiences can take place days, months or years afterwards - there can be continuing interactions. It is a big subject and I cannot do justice to it here.

A wonderful interview with a wonderful person.
I know her personally - she is absolutely great!

Smithy
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(2021-10-20, 03:35 PM)Smithy Wrote: A wonderful interview with a wonderful person.
I know her personally - she is absolutely great!

Smithy

Smithy, it's good to hear from you. I'm sure she would say the same of you too!
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Terminal Lucidity is an interesting phenomenon, here's a self-described skeptic on it:

One Last Goodbye: The Strange Case of Terminal Lucidity
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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