I found this article to be helpful, particularly the section I'm linking here.
[/url] [url=https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/#4]https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/incompatibilism-theories/#4 ~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2023-02-15, 07:42 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Thanks, I'll be curious as to her response.Seems to me the question comes down to this: If free will is incompatible with determinism and requires indeterminism, what are the aspects of indeterminism? One is pure randomness. What are the others and how do they play out in an act of making a free decision? ~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2023-02-15, 08:06 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: I found this article to be helpful, particularly the section I'm linking here. Does it say anything about NDEs or Psi? I notice it mentions something about Laws of Nature...not sure what those actually are or how they work...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
(This post was last modified: 2023-02-15, 08:10 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
- Bertrand Russell
(2023-02-15, 08:09 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Does it say anything about NDEs or Psi?It does not. It's uses of "laws of nature" seem pretty innocent to me, but I just take them as descriptive. ~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2023-02-15, 08:09 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: Seems to me the question comes down to this: If free will is incompatible with determinism and requires indeterminism, what are the aspects of indeterminism? One is pure randomness. What are the others and how do they play out in an act of making a free decision? I am unconvinced there is any determinism or pure randomness in reality - in fact the former seems like some kind of variation of the latter since it is quite unclear why the determinism holds save by Luck. ...but I recall going through my views on all this in the 65 page thread.  I'll be curious to see what Helen Steward says. Just have to wait and see for now...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2023-02-15, 08:20 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: I am unconvinced there is any determinism or pure randomness in reality - in fact the former seems like some kind of variation of the latter since it is quite unclear why the determinism holds save by Luck.Then what is there? Could you define "nonrandom indeterminism" or whatever term you would use? Perhaps the definition will help will me understand how you're thinking about this. Because, for me, if event B isn't caused by events A1, A2, etc., perhaps with a coin flip or two tossed in, then I cannot imagine how it's caused. And if it's not caused, then I can't imagine why it isn't arbitrary. ~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2023-02-15, 08:50 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: Then what is there? Could you define "nonrandom indeterminism" or whatever term you would use? Perhaps the definition will help will me understand how you're thinking about this. Already put a lot of posts into this in that 65 page thread. Best to direct your questions to Helen Steward. Could also email Tononi while you're at it...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell 
This refreshes where I landed with this. Paul's asking a seemingly coherent question, at least to me. However, I don't see any possible way to answer it. I simply believe it to be intractable at least based on our present knowledge/insight/intelligence. Perhaps it will always be so, who knows?
So, while I can't explain how a free decision might be made, I don't find the question interesting.
(2023-02-15, 11:49 PM)Silence Wrote: Paul's asking a seemingly coherent question, at least to me. What's the question, in your words?
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2023-02-15, 11:49 PM)Silence Wrote: This refreshes where I landed with this. Paul's asking a seemingly coherent question, at least to me. However, I don't see any possible way to answer it. I simply believe it to be intractable at least based on our present knowledge/insight/intelligence. Perhaps it will always be so, who knows?Greetings, Silence. I find it interesting that you don't find the question interesting.  ~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
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