“Realer than this life” perception during an NDE

No no no the two of you. Mixins with dead bed visions and common non-veridical NDEs doesn’t corroborate the false claim (to quote nbtruthman)


When in fact the data supports a frequency of 0% veridical NDEs in prospective studies and 0.000025% in total estimated cardiac arrests in the western world during the last 50 years.

Well my point is that we don't know the actual frequency of the phenomenon.

Consider how left handedness & homosexuality seem to increase as time went on. While one could assert this is happening at a biological level, the more reasonable interpretation is that as prejudice against both groups diminished more people are willing to identify into either/both groups.

Similarly, I think the stigma against the paranormal means we aren't getting a clear indication of when the phenomena happens.

The point of the "mixins" is that we know all sorts of phenomena happen around death. It doesn't increase the number of NDEs by fiat but it does suggest there are probably even more stories that aren't reported, and some of these could be NDEs.

As for "0% veridical NDEs in prospective studies" I think this ignores the NDE that Parnia did report on that IIRC contains some veridical aspect just not the particular stickers Aware focuses on.

I do guess then that you are essentially saying that Parnia (and the other experts involved) are liars or fools or both. I don't find that contention to be possible or credible.

Nowhere has Sam Parnia claimed that VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time - ever. He claims NDEs are common. That’s not what you are claiming. You are claiming VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time.

Nowhere has Sam Parnia claimed that VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time - ever. He claims NDEs are common. That’s not what you are claiming. You are claiming VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time.

I agree that IF @nbtruthman is saying that Veridical cases are happening all the time he's probably wrong based on recorded data.

But I also think you're wrong about trying to insist that we can give a clear estimate on the number of NDEs, veridical or not, that are happening.

Also you mention that the percentages of NDEs to total hospitalizations means there are no white crows in your opinion, which is very odd because by definition you just need a single white crow.

Nowhere has Sam Parnia claimed that VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time - ever. He claims NDEs are common. That’s not what you are claiming. You are claiming VERIDICAL ndes happens all the time.

Of course I'm not claiming that veridical NDEs happen all the time. In fact I even have enumerated several of the many reasons why they are relatively rare.

Parnia is the expert in this area, and his statement inherently concludes and claims that many NDEs must be real glimpses of an afterlife existence, since he rules out all the standard explain-away options - hallucinations, illusions and drug-induced experiences ("explanations" which include misperceptions and distorted memories). What else is left except that the experiences are real, and that that reality follows the narrative arc he describes?

From the already quoted conclusions of Dr. Parnia:

"The recalled experiences surrounding death are not consistent with hallucinations, illusions, or psychedelic drug–induced experiences, according to several previously published studies. Instead, they follow a specific narrative arc involving a perception of (a) separation from the body with a heightened, vast sense of consciousness and recognition of death; (b) travel to a destination; (c) a meaningful and purposeful review of life, involving a critical analysis of all actions, intentions, and thoughts towards others; a perception of (d) being in a place that feels like “home”; and (e) a return back to life."

Also you mention that the percentages of NDEs to total hospitalizations means there are no white crows in your opinion, which is very odd because by definition you just need a single white crow.

I'm not saying that. A few posts back, I acknowledged the existence of a small number of veridical NDE anomalies that have been thoroughly investigated. I would be happier if they happened more frequently. 

Just before engaging in this debate, I read about a well-known person in a Danish newspaper who had a cardiac arrest during exercise, was resuscitated, and afterward claimed in the interview to have no recollections at all. I often read about such cases. I have never read about someone who, from outside their body, watched their own resuscitation.

I admit that the crows still look darkish to my eyes.

Parnia is the expert in this area, and his statement inherently concludes and claims that many NDEs must be real glimpses of an afterlife existence,

The pattern repeats itself.

The pattern repeats itself.

One repeating pattern I notice is your continuing claim that Parnia et. al. are liars and/or fools. And your not naming any more competent and experienced investigators of rescusitation and near-death phenomena.

Of course I'm not claiming that veridical NDEs happen all the time. In fact I even have enumerated several of the many reasons why they are relatively rare.

Parnia is the expert in this area, and his statement inherently concludes and claims that many NDEs must be real glimpses of an afterlife existence, since he rules out all the standard explain-away options - hallucinations, illusions and drug-induced experiences ("explanations" which include misperceptions and distorted memories). What else is left except that the experiences are real, and that that reality follows the narrative arc he describes?

From the already quoted conclusions of Dr. Parnia:

"The recalled experiences surrounding death are not consistent with hallucinations, illusions, or psychedelic drug–induced experiences, according to several previously published studies. Instead, they follow a specific narrative arc involving a perception of (a) separation from the body with a heightened, vast sense of consciousness and recognition of death; (b) travel to a destination; (c) a meaningful and purposeful review of life, involving a critical analysis of all actions, intentions, and thoughts towards others; a perception of (d) being in a place that feels like “home”; and (e) a return back to life."

The language used by Parnia has changed slightly as time goes on. However he usually avoids uses of perhaps loaded terms such as 'glimpses of an afterlife existence'. What he has said very emphatically is that based on the evidence he concludes that consciousness continues for some (deliberately vague) time after death. He has said things such as, we don't know for how long it continues - because he is dealing with the evidence before his own eyes. I even recall one occasion when he was asked what he personally thought. He replied that he didn't think anything, he had no opinion other than that confirmed by the evidence.

One repeating pattern I notice is your continuing claim that Parnia et. al. are liars and/or fools. And your not naming any more competent and experienced investigators of rescusitation and near-death phenomena.

It’s not about what Parnia has to say. It’s you who repeatedly can’t cite a source without extrapolating and exaggerating. Nowhere does Parnia say it’s glimpses of an afterlife. He may privately think so but he may also just think it proves consciousness isn’t generated by the brain.

You are a premium example of how a chain of nbtruthman witnesses can make the american desert littered with crashed ufos. Everybody in the chain just adds a little extra on top of the story.

A famous H.C. Andersen saying not commonly used in english is “one feather becomes ten hens”

Well my point is that we don't know the actual frequency of the phenomenon.

Consider how left handedness & homosexuality seem to increase as time went on. While one could assert this is happening at a biological level, the more reasonable interpretation is that as prejudice against both groups diminished more people are willing to identify into either/both groups.

Similarly, I think the stigma against the paranormal means we aren't getting a clear indication of when the phenomena happens.

The point of the "mixins" is that we know all sorts of phenomena happen around death. It doesn't increase the number of NDEs by fiat but it does suggest there are probably even more stories that aren't reported, and some of these could be NDEs.

As for "0% veridical NDEs in prospective studies" I think this ignores the NDE that Parnia did report on that IIRC contains some veridical aspect just not the particular stickers Aware focuses on.

Absolutely. The 0% claim is at best disingenuous.

I tend not to get involved in discussions like this because it's all old ground. We have the published papers from the two AWARE studies and we discussed them in microscopic detail at the time. But to reiterate, yes there was at least one veridical case from the first AWARE study, it just happened not to fall into the category of observing the hidden image on a high shelf. But we can't expect patients to behave in ways which conform to the requirements of the study, we can only deal with what they actually report.

It's probably discussed in multiple places on this forum already, though I fear some of them may have been on the skeptiko forum which like the ex-parrot, is no more.

There were also interesting cases in Penny Sartori's study containing veridical and other unusual elements.

I should say the most disappointing aspect of tha AWARE study was not the results themselves. Rather it was the inherent problem in that from hundreds of patients eligible as input to the study, only a tiny fraction trickled through to be part of the output. Thus a massive study ended up with just a tiny sample to actually analyse in any way.