(2017-09-18, 03:30 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]But there is documentation on Mr. Alexander's dishonesty and cover up in the medical field. That's more than innuendo.
There are other doctors who've been convinced by studying NDEs, there are NDErs who've had amazing experiences that include veridical components and there are people who post NDE had miraculous recoveries.
I think it's bad strategy from a marketing standpoint for anyone to make too much of Mr. Alexander, both for the lack of interesting veridicial components in his NDE and his past documented dishonesty. Some people - not necessarily those on Psience Quest - seem to want to appeal to his medical expertise while simultaneously avoiding the criticisms he received in that field.
I'm happy that he has made more people aware of NDEs, the work in Irreducible Mind, and the Hard Problem of Consciousness but if he genuinely cares about the movement and not just making a buck he should do more to push the luminaries in the NDE movement who don't have the questionable reputation he does.
I don't believe anything I'm saying is beyond what you'd hear discussed in a marketing team looking for a spokesperson. Similarly Brian Dunning going to prison for scamming people should make the skeptic movement wary of promoting him as well.
If the target market is the general public, I'd say he's a great spokesperson. If my target audience were doctors or anyone in mainstream academia, I probably wouldn't start with the subject of NDE's... the anecdotal emotional power might be great, but the evidence will not be of the same statistically robust nature as other areas of parapsychology.
(2017-09-18, 03:44 PM)Hurmanetar Wrote: [ -> ]If the target market is the general public, I'd say he's a great spokesperson. If my target audience were doctors or anyone in mainstream academia, I probably wouldn't start with the subject of NDE's... the anecdotal emotional power might be great, but the evidence will not be of the same statistically robust nature as other areas of parapsychology.
Fair enough, I think I may have to just agree to disagree as beyond what I've already written not sure what more I could say.
Hopefully his prominent place in the NDE awareness movement works out.
(2017-09-18, 03:34 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Obiwan, I don't want to fall out with you about this but you've basically contradicted yourself again. So, you are saying it's a fact that he is not of good character. It's not a statement I can accept personally and I don't think it's justified.
I don't see any contradiction - we won't fall out if you point out what the contradiction is
Fact: he '
alter(ed) the original operative report to obscure the fact of the wrong site surgery.' according to the medical board.
(my note: note it says 'to' obscure it. In other words that was the intention).
It seems to me that's a dishonest act.
It wasn't a simple error if the description is a fair summary of the board's finding.
He has been found guilty of it by his regulator.
He has been punished.
From a professional perspective his reputation is tarnished (but not ruined).
Thats it.
That would mean if he appeared again he would not be of 'good character' from their perspective, i.e. he has a previous matter on record.
That isn't the same as saying he can't be believed about anything every again.
Anyway, we've probably done this to death now. As Sci has joined the fray I will leave further comment on Eben Alexander and Life and Times to Sci.
(2017-09-18, 04:21 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see any contradiction - we won't fall out if you point out what the contradiction is
Fact: he 'alter(ed) the original operative report to obscure the fact of the wrong site surgery.' according to the medical board.
(my note: note it says 'to' obscure it. In other words that was the intention).
It seems to me that's a dishonest act.
It wasn't a simple error if the description is a fair summary of the board's finding.
He has been found guilty of it by his regulator.
He has been punished.
From a professional perspective his reputation is tarnished (but not ruined).
Thats it.
That would mean if he appeared again he would not be of 'good character' from their perspective, i.e. he has a previous matter on record.
That isn't the same as saying he can't be believed about anything every again.
Anyway, we've probably done this to death now. As Sci has joined the fray I will leave further comment on Eben Alexander and Life and Times to Sci.
The contradiction :
Post 44
My view is that he is not a person of good character,
Post 53
I am not making a judgement of the man himself
(2017-09-18, 02:38 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't think the example I gave was fraudulent. Sorry I thought you were asking how it could be that a medium might seem to cheat and yet not be cheating. If I need to add to it let me know.
On your experience:
I think it depends on where one's degree of acceptance lies. That said, I have never read of any materialisation medium manipulating ectoplasm themselves. The observers usually describe the medium as inert and playing no part in it as far as I recall.
There do seem to be reports of mediums being freed from bonds and then re-secured (sometimes, clothing removed and returned back to front and suchlike). Is it possible? I think that's down to your judgement if you don't have definitive proof. How confident can you be that the restraints could not be escaped by normal means?
If I read you correctly you believe the medium's hands were free - I can't imagine why that would be necessary. What did you mean by manipulating it?
There have been some very elaborate restraints applied to mediums in the past, whole body bound by sitters not known to the medium including threads which would snap if there was interference.
What I mean is: in the low light created by a partially glowing 6x8 chalk board the medium leaned forward and held the mass of ectoplasm in his hands. It was about a cubic foot of material and he stretched it to show is the consistency of it. I wouldn't call it "necessary",, it was more about showing us what ectoplasm was. And it wasn't the medium talking us through it but an entity. Unfortunately I couldn't see medium's mouth so can't really saw what the source of the voice was.
I know these are standard heavy duty zip ties. The ones that are about 1/2 wide straps. I personally checked them after they were installed and looked real and they were tight. And I inspected a cut tie after the demonstration and it looked normal. I suppose there might be some hard to see modification to the tie to release it but a normal person could never get out of these ties. It would take someone with some real "magic" skills to do this. I have seem MUCH more impressive feats done by professional magicians, so I have no doubt the trick is doable. But a "normal" person couldn't do it.
(2017-09-18, 03:30 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]There are other doctors who've been convinced by studying NDEs, there are NDErs who've had amazing experiences that include veridical components and there are people who post NDE had miraculous recoveries.
I understand what you are saying.
But to your point above- what are the chances that one of THOSE doctors have something in their past that makes THEM look bad? I'd say pretty good. Doesn't address your concern, but only goes to the problem of person veracity with stuff like this.
(2017-09-18, 04:55 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]I understand what you are saying.
But to your point above- what are the chances that one of THOSE doctors have something in their past that makes THEM look bad? I'd say pretty good. Doesn't address your concern, but only goes to the problem of person veracity with stuff like this.
"But to your point above- what are the chances that one of THOSE doctors have something in their past that makes THEM look bad?"
I'd say nailed on certainty, unless they aren't human.
(2017-09-18, 04:44 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Post 44
My view is that he is not a person of good character,
Post 53
I am not making a judgement of the man himself
Ah right I see what you mean.
By 'not of good character' I mean he has a mark against him officially. I.e. His reputation is not unblemished.
I have no idea what sort of person he is or whether he is a trustworthy.
(2017-09-18, 04:44 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]What I mean is: in the low light created by a partially glowing 6x8 chalk board the medium leaned forward and held the mass of ectoplasm in his hands. It was about a cubic foot of material and he stretched it to show is the consistency of it. I wouldn't call it "necessary",, it was more about showing us what ectoplasm was. And it wasn't the medium talking us through it but an entity. Unfortunately I couldn't see medium's mouth so can't really saw what the source of the voice was.
I know these are standard heavy duty zip ties. The ones that are about 1/2 wide straps. I personally checked them after they were installed and looked real and they were tight. And I inspected a cut tie after the demonstration and it looked normal. I suppose there might be some hard to see modification to the tie to release it but a normal person could never get out of these ties. It would take someone with some real "magic" skills to do this. I have seem MUCH more impressive feats done by professional magicians, so I have no doubt the trick is doable. But a "normal" person couldn't do it.
OK. I guess you have to be there
If you think that it is unlikely he escaped the ties somehow and have ruled out all the alternatives to your satisfaction, whatever is left must be the truth.
If you didn't have a chance to touch the 'ectoplasm' then it's difficult to form a view I suppose.
I guess we're assuming the medium is a 'normal' person i.e. untrained however it's hard to know whether that is true or not. How would you know if it was an entity talking through the medium or not?
I guess you just have to take these things as you find them if you're simply a sitter. I can't see how you could easily have done much more than you did to validate it.
From a personal perspective I won't be rushing out to buy a ticket