I am inclined to be a little more suspicious of Alexander and I'm also inclined to think that my views stem from first impressions. Something didn't feel right when I read his story (or listened to interviews - I have not read his book).
For the sceptic, the misconduct charge is a slam dunk - the guy can't be trusted, full stop. But that's not the reason for my reservations. For me it was the media fanfare and a seemingly media-savvy book promotion campaign. There's something about commercialisation that gets under my skin - perhaps it is my British reserve - but the way Americans tend to capitalise on their personal dramas always makes me suspicious.
And yet, others have published books and I have not had the same suspicions: Anita Moorjani has become successful through her writing and public speaking. Still, for me it is the bulk of unheralded personal stories - often off the cuff and unsensational - that I find convincing. Eben Alexander was able to leverage the fact that he is a neurosurgeon - probably the last person you would expect to believe in this stuff - to sell his books so it is probably fair to question his standing though not fair to use the blemish as proof of a habitual mendacious character.
I'm entirely with you, but I feel a compunction to look the other way because. " Its money that matters in the USA"
Alexander’s account employs some artistic licence to make the story more dramatic and interesting for the reader.
(2018-04-24, 07:25 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Alexander’s account employs some artistic licence to make the story more dramatic and interesting for the reader.
Oh really ? And your basis for this statement is what ?
Just to clarify a few things.
Alexander's NDE interested me because the report came from a highly qualified brain expert, previously agnostic, who'd ignored the NDE's reported by his patients and treated them as fantasies.
It is true that not all the neurons in his brain were stunned to silence. But the part of the brain (apparently) that is thought to be responsible for thoughts, perceptions, the part that makes us human (as Alexander often reminds us) was completely down. That's just a fact (as uncomfortable as it is for the sceptics on here) so he shouldn't have had any experience at all (apparently)
What better candidate could you have to judge the reality (or not) of this phenomenon than an agnostic brain surgeon ?
As to the 'imagery' of his report, personally, I don't see what the problem is. But for many even on here, it seems to be that the ride on the "butterfly" is too outlandish, too 'far out' to be plausible. The logic of this is lost on me but there you go, even 'heaven' has to be normal, it seems. In that case, it's surely better to reject the whole report.
Lastly, what I don't like about it is the commercialism. I don't like it at all... but it's got nothing to do with whether or not his experience is/was authentic and remarkable.
(2018-04-24, 04:36 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]It's crazy to say his neurons were silent, that is the idea that he had no neurons firing. We don't have any observations about his brain state that are of sufficient detail to make such a claim, but in any case, the likelihood of no firing neurons during his coma is zero.
There are also reports from people who have experienced some very frightening and upsetting NDE's. Are you seeking to exclude these frightening experiences from your 'outlandish' heaven? People who subsequently become terrified of dying and death, because of the fear that they may re-experience their NDE again.
It's not crazy, it happens all the time in hypothermic cardiac standstill. But if you read my post properly, I didn't say all the neurons in his brain were silent. Just those in his neo-cortex (apparently) the part that makes us human (apparently).
I'm just telling you what he said. Does Alexander not know about these things ? Can you tell me anyone who is better qualified to know ?
(2018-04-24, 04:36 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]It's crazy to say his neurons were silent, that is the idea that he had no neurons firing. We don't have any observations about his brain state that are of sufficient detail to make such a claim, but in any case, the likelihood of no firing neurons during his coma is zero.
There are also reports from people who have experienced some very frightening and upsetting NDE's. Are you seeking to exclude these frightening experiences from your 'outlandish' heaven? People who subsequently become terrified of dying and death, because of the fear that they may re-experience their NDE again.
There are also reports from people who have experienced some very frightening and upsetting NDE's. Are you seeking to exclude these frightening experiences from your 'outlandish' heaven? People who subsequently become terrified of dying and death, because of the fear that they may re-experience their NDE again.
I don't understand your question. And what do you mean about MY outlandish heaven. Why is it MY heaven ? What (on earth) are you talking about, Max, are you on the wine already ? (just kidding)
(2018-04-24, 12:07 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Oh really ? And your basis for this statement is what ?
Because he said so.
I’d never read the esquire piece before last night. I’d just accepted it was a poor ‘hit job’ because that’s what everyone said.
It certainly doesn’t read like a ‘hit job’. It is well written and meticulously researched. He appeared to be screwing up professionally on a serial basis. There is plenty in that article that has never been even slightly addressed by Alexander, including inconsistencies around his reporting of his experience and treatment.
I would urge everyone to read it carefully. Try and read it as if it was about Michael Shermer, if that helps
https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/in...e-prophet/
(2018-04-24, 06:26 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]He appeared to be screwing up professionally on a serial basis.
I don't have a dog in this fight as I'm not super familiar with Eben and I am, as others have stated, wary of folks commercializing things like this.
That said, the article didn't seem to indicate he was serially incompetent. Seems like he was an active, even highly active, practicing neurosurgeon for an extended period of time and had, what, a 2-3 malpractice suits? Is that considering serial in the neurosurgical realm? Where were the interviews with the patients who survived grave odds due to Alexander's innovative use of "stereotactic radiosurgery"?
I guess I think it would be, literally, impossible to find anyone who could emerge unscathed from a talented investigative journalist.
Does the article prove his a "serial" liar and made up the entire series of events? That doesn't seem fair. Does the article give one pause to consider the character of the author? Yeah, I guess so. That said, it didn't seem to delve much into a positive character witnesses but went long on negative character witnesses. Was that the journalist's agenda? Who knows.
(2018-04-24, 06:26 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]I would urge everyone to read it carefully. Try and read it as if it was about Michael Shermer, if that helps
This.
Speaking for myself and not for proponents in general, I have to be careful not to have double standards. Take Trump, for example. His supporters seem to accept everything he does with a shrug. "So what - he's an ordinary guy not a politician". Well, not good enough. Not good for an ordinary guy to lie constantly and infinitely worse for a president to do so. Not good for an ordinary guy to treat women like his personal sex toys and infinitely worse for the leader of a nation. So it is not good for an ordinary guy to be caught out making mistakes and then trying to cover them up and it is much worse for a doctor. That speaks to his character: it doesn't mean that he is a serial offender or that nothing he says can be trusted but it raises suspicion and we should proceed with caution. As Malf says, apply the same standards as we would for Michael Shermer (who, by the way, appears to have his own skeletons in the cupboard).
To answer Tim's point about the veracity of his story because it comes from a neurosurgeon: the point I was making earlier was that this is precisely what makes his book commercially viable. Would he have hit the headlines and been invited on to TV shows had he been that ordinary guy? An ordinary guy who rides butterflies? No - the ordinary guy would have been ignored, even by many proponents. Again, from a personal point of view, I don't think the butterfly ride is so outrageous - some subjective experiences seem weird - but such an experience is an outlier in the canon of NDE accounts: not even close to typical. So I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying that the veracity of the NDE phenomenon has grown due to a certain consistency and Alexander's account is not really consistent with most.
His story deserves an unbiased hearing but, from the start, there have been warning bells ringing in my mind about Eben Alexander. Would it matter if he were exposed as a fraud? Well, yes - it would matter to the thousands of people who have told their stories in the face of a barrage of scepticism. It matters to those of us who want to give those people a fair hearing.