Psience Quest

(2017-09-07, 06:24 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]Since belief is mentioned.

I don't belief in an afterlife any more than I believe in water.

Water is empirical... an afterlife is not.

Quote:Leuders said "Tim for example stated " I don't see how humans could or would be able to complete their lives satisfactorily" if they know beyond doubt death is the end. I am trying to figure out why you guys believe this? Proponents seem to strongly bank on an afterlife existing. Their belief in it seems to shape what they do in the now. That is something I do not understand.

Have you ever spoken to anyone who has died ie been brought back from cardiac arrest after many minutes, Leuders ?
I have many times. Have you studied the literature, not just NDE's but reincarnation, death bed visions, mediumship
of all kinds, crisis apparitions ?  

Human beings who believe death is the end, tend to grow stiff (no pun intended) and fearful as they get to what they "know" is the end of them.  It's just a well known observable fact, it doesn't mean that is the reason why you should believe in an afterlife though.
Personally, I believe it for three reasons. My own memories (which I don't want to go into). Evidence from the literature and the evidence of my own eyes. The large scale rejection of the idea of an afterlife became popular with the critical scientific  rationalism of the 20th century but before that things were rather different.

My Grandma, for instance believed wholeheartedly in it (life after death) and so did the majority of the people who lived in her street (a poverty stricken terrace). Why ? They knew it was true, just a fact of life....or death, more accurately.
 
My uncle (believe it or not) was killed in the first world war (yes the first) and he "appeared" at the foot of my Grandma's next door neighbour's bed... and asked her to tell my Grandma (his mother) that he had died, which she did the next day. The telegram confirming his death arrived about a week later. What's more this was a very common occurrence during that period (as there were more than 1000,000 deaths) and no one thought there was anything special about it.

It doesn't take too many reports like that before one realises that critical rationalism is wrong.

Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking.

I am not convinced by anecdotal evidence which you cite, they are just subjective stories. I guess we could create another thread discussing supposed evidence for an afterlife (pro and con). Like yourself I have read a lot. No I have not chatted with anyone who has experienced such things via cardiac arrest. I read a book by a guy and he said he experienced nothing. Does the idea of an eternal oblivion scare you?

(2017-09-07, 07:13 PM)Mac Wrote: [ -> ]Forgive me for commenting here as I am new but I am pretty sure Leuders is a rationalwiki editor, he has written 'hit-pieces' on various parapsychologists. Some of these parapsychologists I greatly admire but he has written smears about them on this (I)rationalwiki piece of garbage website. He is nothing more than a pseudoskeptic. Why is he not banned from this forum?

Maybe the mods could check that out, Mac.

(2017-09-07, 07:39 PM)Leuders Wrote: [ -> ]Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking.

I am not convinced by anecdotal evidence which you cite, they are just subjective stories. I guess we could create another thread discussing supposed evidence for an afterlife (pro and con). Like yourself I have read a lot. No I have not chatted with anyone who has experienced such things via cardiac arrest. I read a book by a guy and he said he experienced nothing. Does the idea of an eternal oblivion scare you?

"Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking"

What's wishful thinking got to do with it. I might just as well address that to you. If you'd read the literature you would know that wishful thinking doesn't come into it. People who don't want NDE's have them and visa versa. You'll have to do better than that, Leuders.  

As for the old "it's just an anecdote excuse" (sceptical excuse number ???)  that used to be the case decades ago but serious discussion has moved beyond that. And no, the idea of oblivion doesn't scare me, only the manner in which it would arrive, if it were true. But I'm certain it's not..and if I'm wrong I'll never know.

Concepts such as wishful thinking are irrelevant. Wishful thinking doesn't make air appear or disappear.

(2017-09-07, 07:59 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]"Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking"

What's wishful thinking got to do with it. I might just as well address that to you. If you'd read the literature you would know that wishful thinking doesn't come into it. People who don't want NDE's have them and visa versa. You'll have to do better than that, Leuders.  

As for the old "it's just an anecdote excuse" (sceptical excuse number ???)  that used to be the case decades ago but serious discussion has moved beyond that. And no, the idea of oblivion doesn't scare me, only the manner in which it would arrive, if it were true. But I'm certain it's not..and if I'm wrong I'll never know.

Wishful thinking is a big part of belief in an afterlife.

I am not equating an afterlife with having a near-death experience. I am well aware all kinds of people have had NDE's... but they are not evidence for an afterlife... they are evidence of a damaged or dying brain.

http://www.academia.edu/10060970/Occams_...rience_NDE_

Quote:"There appears to be no study clearly and objectively demonstrating both the presence of a completely inactive human brain and the synchronous co-presence of striking and vivid NDE taking place at that specific and exact point in time... not one single study."

"The paranormalist view has neither changed nor been endowed with evidential support over the same time period. This view still clings to the same faith-based reasoning and claims it did decades ago... in essence, this is tantamount to no progress at all."

(2017-09-07, 10:01 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know about the other three, and I think there are many reasons, but you can definitely consider a reason that goes something like... "why am I even having this experience?"

I don't know the answer to that, and taken together with my own research, that's the main reason why I remain open minded on what occurs when I'm irreversibly dead. Seeing as nobody actually living seems able to tell me what happens when I die, that's the most logical position to take from my point of view.

I agree with you there are many reasons but those are the main three I could think of why people believe in an afterlife. Religion has been a very important factor. It is also obviously very common to fear death as we get to old age. The belief in an afterlife is comforting and acts as a psychological coping mechanism. I am not bashing people who believe in one.

(2017-09-07, 10:32 PM)Leuders Wrote: [ -> ]Wishful thinking is a big part of belief in an afterlife.

I am not equating an afterlife with having a near-death experience. I am well aware all kinds of people have had NDE's... but they are not evidence for an afterlife... they are evidence of a damaged or dying brain.

http://www.academia.edu/10060970/Occams_...rience_NDE_

Excellent ! Are you Jason Braithwaite ? Yes I've had an email exchange with Jason, if that's you, is it  ? If it is, welcome ! but please don't make disgusting remarks about certain people deceased. (I'll assume you're not though).

He asserts that he has refuted both Michael Sabom and Pim Van Lommel.

His main 'argument' is that there might still be some deep rooted brain activity, un-measurable on the cortical level, sufficient to enable these experiences to occur. (yes, why not when there's nothing else to say )  The data on this, however is very clear. In cardiac arrest, global electrical activity is lost within a maximum of 10-20-30 seconds. (average 15)

What he has conveniently overlooked is that as soon as the heart stops pumping, the brainstem stops functioning. Without a brainstem, it doesn't matter about anything above it, the whole brain is off line. No deep structures still providing some (sceptical get out) back up function.  

Jason is a psychologist (not an MD) so I'm assuming he pretends he doesn't know that... and creatively 'feeds' fellow sceptics like you (are you a guy ?) with what you want to hear. And clearly you swallow it.

I'm not an expert BTW (neither is Braithwaite on this stuff)

Wishful thinking and belief is a big part of denying an afterlife.

(2017-09-07, 11:23 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard that some people fear their own death, but I can't remember a time that I did. But perhaps my childhood Spiritually Transformative Experience has a bearing on that, although at around 11-12, it's so early in my life that there is no way of knowing if it did make the difference, it *was* incredibly profound, and it does bring me a great deal of comfort.

All I know is that today, I simply don't fear death. If there is something afterwards - particularly if it's interesting - that's great, and if there isn't, it won't matter anyway. The same cannot be said for the dying part though, I've never done that, so I'd really prefer not to have an unpleasant experience as my life draws to a close.

I think the sudden blast of "Why am I having this experience?" presents a major puzzle. You know, you're shaving in the mirror or something, thinking about life, and suddenly all the tumblers come together and you have that brief experience of "What the fuck am I doing...." and just as suddenly, this profound feeling of some awareness, of something about 'you' being 'here' slips through your fingers. That is another of the experiences that lets me keep the door open to something else going on.

Max said "it *was* incredibly profound, and it does bring me a great deal of comfort. "

Why does it bring you comfort ? Your quantum coherence will disappear as soon as your brain turns to cinders.