Psience Quest

(2017-09-04, 10:25 AM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]This is pitiful and it is exactly what reasonable people think is going on. 

Pssst- I know you have said that these people "don't care if you believe" and you know what? They should! 

If they have any objective at all, I would assume it is to demonstrate the actual nature of our reality. If the average person is to take them seriously they need to take steps to demonstrate legitimacy.

After-all,,, why have your mouth taped and your arms tied, but then refuse to be in the open? And If you MUST be behind a curtain for some reason, how about placing a camera such that you can be viewed at all times,and then allow anyone, after the session, to see, and perhaps make a copy of the video? You couldn't do this is 1925, but you can now...

They can't have it both ways: saying "look, my hands are tied to prove I am legit", ,,, but now I need to hide for a while where you can't see me. 'Trust me, I'm not doing anything "funny" '. 

And OK the lighting must be very low,,, but I'm getting the feeling that low light photography does work and is not a danger to them... So why not use it? Because it will expose too much?

It all stinks. And no wonder the vast majority of people think this is bullshit.

I'm especially saying this to you because you have a lot of experience in these matters and with these people, and maybe you could have some sway with them. 

They should want to be considered legitimate,,,  and they should relish the chance to demonstrate that fact to the average person (they will never provide enough proof for an extreme skeptic,, but who cares?)

OTOH- maybe they feel there's enough people out there who are on the fence to be a good source of income?

Yes, it is "no wonder the vast majority of people think this is bullshit" primarily because the vast majority of ppl are 15 sound bytes intelligent about this matter.

As to pressing on their legitimacy, what exactly would legitimate entail? It's a moving target and as they found out with the Braude-Wolf debacle. Why satisfy the judgments of ppl who know little to nothing with the phenomenon? Not observations, straight-fwd judgments. 

Sway them, hell, I am the one who advised all of them to forego any scientific or other so-called 'investigations'. I drew up a set of 'rules' for investigation that Braude refused to work under, e was wanting to "have another go" w/out The Wolf. Too bad, you blew it, Stepehen, you're out.

So whose going to do this investigation anyway that has the credentials to pull one off? They're nowhere to be found, the interest in PM is null to void.

(2017-09-04, 04:23 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, it is "no wonder the vast majority of people think this is bullshit" primarily because the vast majority of ppl are 15 sound bytes intelligent about this matter.

As to pressing on their legitimacy, what exactly would legitimate entail? It's a moving target and as they found out with the Braude-Wolf debacle. Why satisfy the judgments of ppl who know little to nothing with the phenomenon? Not observations, straight-fwd judgments. 

Sway them, hell, I am the one who advised all of them to forego any scientific or other so-called 'investigations'. I drew up a set of 'rules' for investigation that Braude refused to work under, e was wanting to "have another go" w/out The Wolf. Too bad, you blew it, Stepehen, you're out.

So whose going to do this investigation anyway that has the credentials to pull one off? They're nowhere to be found, the interest in PM is null to void.

I get what you are saying.

But just to be clear on this-
I am in no way suggesting someone attempt a full and complete analysis of this, with the objective to nail it to the wall. There are many reasons why this would not be fruitful and would not be worth the trouble.

However, I AM suggesting that something like a simple low light camera showing whether someone is walking around the room with a trumpet, or has removed the bindings on their wrists, or is stuffing something in their mouth, would be very useful, and it would demonstrate an honest attempt at transparency (pun sort of intended). 

As I said earlier- they are taking great pains to show everyone that they are bound. Why would they do this? Answer- To show the audience that they are not trying to fool them right? Well if they were to place a $75 battery powered camera at an angle to show them while they sit behind the curtain gathering their thoughts, they could easily dispel those criticisms.

My feeling is: the (totally valid) fact that they can never prove themselves to everybody, is a poor excuse for not taking at least the simple steps to satisfy most people. They realize this, or they wouldn't tape their mouths and bind their wrists.

Here's the bottom line for me: 
when my parents, and later in life my religious friends, told me that there was no proof of God's existence, and that proof wasn't possible, and that I need to just "have faith", I thought about it, and lovingly told them all to shove it. I decided I would not accept something as incredible as what they were saying without some evidence. And I'm glad I stuck to my principles, because I am here today with the understanding I have, by virtue of that mindset. I would call it: being open minded with discernment.

I think the obvious question that people have with PMs is: what is that guy doing behind the curtain and/or in the dark? 

This could be easily answered, by one or two simple steps: if only just to show good faith. I'm not looking for anything extraordinary, just minimal steps to establish trust.

Heck- I'll buy the camera and donate it to the cause..

(2017-09-04, 05:03 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]I get what you are saying.

But just to be clear on this-
I am in no way suggesting someone attempt a full and complete analysis of this, with the objective to nail it to the wall. There are many reasons why this would not be fruitful and would not be worth the trouble.

However, I AM suggesting that something like a simple low light camera showing whether someone is walking around the room with a trumpet, or has removed the bindings on their wrists, or is stuffing something in their mouth, would be very useful, and it would demonstrate an honest attempt at transparency (pun sort of intended). 

As I said earlier- they are taking great pains to show everyone that they are bound. Why would they do this? Answer- To show the audience that they are not trying to fool them right? Well if they were to place a $75 battery powered camera at an angle to show them while they sit behind the curtain gathering their thoughts, they could easily dispel those criticisms.

My feeling is: the (totally valid) fact that they can never prove themselves to everybody, is a poor excuse for not taking at least the simple steps to satisfy most people. They realize this, or they wouldn't tape their mouths and bind their wrists.

Here's the bottom line for me: 
when my parents, and later in life my religious friends, told me that there was no proof of God's existence, and that proof wasn't possible, and that I need to just "have faith", I thought about it, and lovingly told them all to shove it. I decided I would not accept something as incredible as what they were saying without some evidence. And I'm glad I stuck to my principles, because I am here today with the understanding I have, by virtue of that mindset. I would call it: being open minded with discernment.

I think the obvious question that people have with PMs is: what is that guy doing behind the curtain and/or in the dark? 

This could be easily answered, by one or two simple steps: if only just to show good faith. I'm not looking for anything extraordinary, just minimal steps to establish trust.

Heck- I'll buy the camera and donate it to the cause..

Spirit controls when recordings are made, photo or video is shot. The medium has no issue with allowing spirit this responsibility, who would better know what is dangerous and what is not? Remember, and this fact gets lost very quickly, people, including sitters, can be irreparably harmed or killed  DEAD.  I mean are you willing to be the one who calls Emergency Services and explain how the dead medium was killed because of a sitter's unwillingness to play by the rules or there is a foul-up unforeseen (spirit is far from perfect)? 

We have a regular sitter who is also the Head of Detectives, when we caught a sitter trying to sneak in a small recorder unauthorized, we expelled the sitter and he wanted to press charges for malicious mischief...at the least.

Too much is at stake, when or if spirit decides to open up for more thorough investigation, then and only then will there be that investigation and until then, no chance.

We have access to all of the most advanced low light, night vision and infrared technologies from the equipment coffers of the intelligence community. Let me say it this way, there is no chance they will be let into a modern PM seance room but they sure would like to know how to create ectoplasm. 

(2017-09-04, 05:22 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]Spirit controls when recordings are made, photo or video is shot. The medium has no issue with allowing spirit this responsibility, who would better know what is dangerous and what is not? Remember, and this fact gets lost very quickly, people, including sitters, can be irreparably harmed or killed  DEAD.  I mean are you willing to be the one who calls Emergency Services and explain how the dead medium was killed because of a sitter's unwillingness to play by the rules or there is a foul-up unforeseen (spirit is far from perfect)? 

We have a regular sitter who is also the Head of Detectives, when we caught a sitter trying to sneak in a small recorder unauthorized, we expelled the sitter and he wanted to press charges for malicious mischief...at the least.

Too much is at stake, when or if spirit decides to open up for more thorough investigation, then and only then will there be that investigation and until then, no chance.

We have access to all of the most advanced low light, night vision and infrared technologies from the equipment coffers of the intelligence community. Let me say it this way, there is no chance they will be let into a modern PM seance room but they sure would like to know how to create ectoplasm. 

Thanks for patiently dealing what may sound as criticism from me, but is really me just thinking out loud about how to open this up to a wider audience and reduce the obvious sources of skepticism. 

Of course anything I was suggesting would have to be managed and accepted and planned by the medium and/or spirit. I would never suggest doing this sort of thing surreptitiously. I have heard about a death back in the 30's I think, of a famous female PM. Can't remember her name.

I hope to gain more insight into this whole process when I visit a PM in the next few days. After that experience, I assume I will have a deeper insight into the process. 

Can't wait!

(2017-09-04, 05:38 PM)jkmac Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for patiently dealing what may sound as criticism from me, but is really me just thinking out loud about how to open this up to a wider audience and reduce the obvious sources of skepticism. 

Of course anything I was suggesting would have to be managed and accepted and planned by the medium and/or spirit. I would never suggest doing this sort of thing surreptitiously. I have heard about a death back in the 30's I think, of a famous female PM. Can't remember her name.

I hope to gain more insight into this whole process when I visit a PM in the next few days. After that experience, I assume I will have a deeper insight into the process. 

Can't wait!

No worries, your experience is important to me, I learn from it. Her name was most probably Helen Duncan. Guess who was The Prime Minister ordained into the Grand Ancient Order of Druids and was a client and also a keen supporter of Helen Duncan? heh

Synchronicities, yes?

When you visit with Caylor, get to the seance room an hour or so in advance, Warren typically shows up then. Ask him about it. Who knows, he may have a change of heart. 

Enjoy yourself, PM is a life-changing event. 

(2017-09-04, 05:55 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]No worries, your experience is important to me, I learn from it. Her name was most probably Helen Duncan. Guess who was The Prime Minister ordained into the Grand Ancient Order of Druids and was a client and also a keen supporter of Helen Duncan? heh

Synchronicities, yes?

When you visit with Caylor, get to the seance room an hour or so in advance, Warren typically shows up then. Ask him about it. Who knows, he may have a change of heart. 

Enjoy yourself, PM is a life-changing event. 

Yes it was Helen. And yes,,, quite a synchronicity. I have learned in the last few years to watch and learn from such occurrences... 

As far as the session- 
Planning to get there quite early.

Thanks

Here is some more illustrations and photographs to how physical mediums did their tricks.

(2017-09-04, 04:13 PM)Pssst Wrote: [ -> ]The inhabitants of SpritualismLink are, for the most part, fundamentalist-Spiritualists (Modern Spiritualists aka), they have long ago decided what is "proper" mediumship and what is not. They represent one end of the PM spectrum, I and the large majority of actual PM attendees represent the other. So my advice would be to stand in a neutral space in between, and make your own decisions.

And go to seance and find out for yourself.

All of the PMs demonstrating today are very open to any questions whatsoever about their mediumship in person. If you get to know them, they respond to email and txt and to incoming phone calls. They just don't agree with the fundamentalists and have zero intention of paying any attention to their input (judgments).

Thanks. This provides context.

As I am not aloud to post on other parts of the forum about mediums, I will do it here only.

Chris  jkmac  Kamarling have defended Duncan or did not comment about these negative aspects of her career. What do you think about the above obvious fraudulent ectoplasm photographs depicting cheesecloth? Do you accept these photographs are evidence of fraud?

I also link again to the report and photographs of the famous investigation by Harry Price.

http://www.harrypricewebsite.co.uk/Seanc...-index.htm

(2017-09-06, 02:26 AM)Leuders Wrote: [ -> ]Chris  jkmac  Kamarling have defended Duncan or did not comment about these negative aspects of her career.

Actually, I think my only comment on Helen Duncan was that the information in the Wikipedia articles on her and the HMS Barham was difficult to reconcile. You shouldn't interpret that as a defence of her, or any kind of implied positive comment about her.