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(2017-12-01, 10:57 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not saying there is no problem. I'm saying that the problem is just like the problem of evolution of every other mechanism. But people who insist that the code is something special must have a principle in mind. Why can't anyone state the principle?

As you'll recall, we spent a lot of time discussing what makes something a code. Why is the genetic code more of a code than other selective binding molecules, or more of a code than the valence electron patterns? There must be a principle involved. Why is it interesting that there are (supposedly) no other natural codes?

You could just as well say that there is no example of a walking kinetic molecule other than kinesin molecules. Does that make it special, too?

Until someone can state the principle, why would you assume that I could explain why it's not a principle that prevents nature from evolving a code? For example, why couldn't it start as a single-base code, evolve slowly into a 2-base code, and then evolve a third degenerate base in order to improve fidelity?


~~ Paul

I have followed only bits and pieces of these previous discussions. Was there ever a time, when you gave examples of what it was that was asked for (e.g. natural codes), that those examples were accepted? For example, is there a reason that pheromones or polymorphic crystals aren't codes?

Linda
(2017-12-02, 03:28 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I have followed only bits and pieces of these previous discussions. Was there ever a time, when you gave examples of what it was that was asked for (e.g. natural codes), that those examples were accepted? For example, is there a reason that pheromones or polymorphic crystals aren't codes?

Linda

We talked about those two things, along with the periodic table. None were accepted. I don't think we ever converged on a definition of "code" that includes the genetic code but excludes those things.

As I'm about to post, there seems to be some serious question begging going on.

~~ Paul
Please correct me if I'm wrong here. The logic appears to be:

1. I do not accept that there are any codes in nature that developed naturalistically.

2. There are codes designed by humans.

3. Therefore, all codes require intelligent design.

This is obvious question begging, so I must be incorrect. 

~~ Paul
(2017-11-30, 02:16 AM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf
 
For a point-by-point rejoinder to Elsberry and Shallit, see http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/sho...hp/id/1488


Quote:The ordered deck of cards is a human artifact. I don't think you can find an objective way to determine whether natural artifacts are specified. And if you could, you still wouldn't have a proof that some particular specified natural artifact must have been designed. You have no proof that specification cannot be accomplished naturally.

I wish people would stop claiming that evolution has to make a random search. There is plenty of literature about mechanisms that narrow the search to fruitful subspaces of sequence space.

Which says nothing about natural artifacts.

A natural process can create a code based on chemistry given enough time. The question is: has there been enough time? If you think that evolution of a code is impossible in principle, I'd love to hear why.

This is basically an argument by assertion. You want us to take your word for this. If you want to talk about proof, you have no proof that codes can evolve from chemicals, no proof that specification can evolve. Only some ingenious sketchy just-so stories. Only faith in an almost omnipotent capacity of nature to evolve anything small step by small step given enough time.  It just has to be accepted on faith, and the fact ignored that codes and specifications have only been observed to originate from intelligent agents. As I have mentioned, this concept is fundamentally in principle unfalsifiable and unscientific, because theoretically there could be an infinite number of logically possible (though vanishingly improbable) just-so stories, and falsifying them all would be impossible.

Quote: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17293019

https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/37/3/679/1079742

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10....196.003223

Note that a lack of detailed description of the evolution of topoisomerases says nothing about the description of the purported intelligent design of them.

Concerning the evolution of enzymes, see my response in the following post #505. As I have mentioned, the design inference is just that - it does not attempt to identify the nature and methods of the designer.
(2017-11-30, 12:30 AM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/...obability/

Some added depth in the comments too

For a research paper on problems with the neo-Darwinian evolution of new enzyme functions, see "The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway", at http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/...O-C.2011.1:

Abstract

Enzymes group naturally into families according to similarity of sequence, structure, and underlying mechanism. Enzymes belonging to the same family are considered to be homologs--the products of evolutionary divergence, whereby the first family member provided a starting point for conversions to new but related functions. In fact, despite their similarities, these families can include remarkable functional diversity. Here we focus not on minor functional variations within families, but rather on innovations--transitions to genuinely new catalytic functions. Prior experimental attempts to reproduce such transitions have typically found that many mutational changes are needed to achieve even weak functional conversion, which raises the question of their evolutionary feasibility. To further investigate this, we examined the members of a large enzyme superfamily, the PLP-dependent transferases, to find a pair with distinct reaction chemistries and high structural similarity. We then set out to convert one of these enzymes, 2-amino-3-ketobutyrate CoA ligase (Kbl2), to perform the metabolic function of the other, 8-amino-7-oxononanoate synthase (BioF2). After identifying and testing 29 amino acid changes, we found three groups of active-site positions and one single position where Kbl2 side chains are incompatible with BioF2 function. Converting these side chains in Kbl2 makes the residues in the active-site cavity identical to those of BioF2, but nonetheless fails to produce detectable BioF2-like function in vivo. We infer from the mutants examined that successful functional conversion would in this case require seven or more nucleotide substitutions. But evolutionary innovations requiring that many changes would be extraordinarily rare, becoming probable only on timescales much longer than the age of life on earth. Considering that Kbl2 and BioF2 are judged to be close homologs by the usual similarity measures, this result and others like it challenge the conventional practice of inferring from similarity alone that transitions to new functions occurred by Darwinian evolution.

Article on problems with the neo-Darwinian evolution of new enzyme functions: See http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/1...08728_0022:

"First obstacle: Because gene expression is costly, it cannot be assumed that weakly converted enzyme functions isolated by laboratory selection would provide net selective benefit in wild populations.
...Second obstacle: Beneficial mutations appearing less than about once per generation in a global bacterial population may remain unfixed for a billion years or more.
...Third obstacle: Adaptations requiring duplication and modification of an existing gene should not be presumed feasible if they require more than two specific base substitutions, which seems to exclude most functional conversions. Enzymatic innovations requiring more than two specific mutations in a spare gene (provided by a duplication event) are implausible in neo-Darwinian terms." 

Here is a 2010 review paper by Michael Behe in Quarterly Review of Biology which found that when bacteria and viruses undergo adaptations at the molecular level, they tend to lose or diminish molecular functions: Michael Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations, and the “First Rule of Adaptive Evolution,” The Quarterly Review of Biology 85(4) (December, 2010).

An empirical study by Ann Gauger and Ralph Seelke found that when only two mutations along a stepwise pathway were required to restore function to a bacterial gene, even then the Darwinian mechanism failed (Ann Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F. Fahey, and Ralph Seelke, “Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness,” BIO-Complexity 2010 (2): 1-9).


I notice you haven't responded to the three challenges at the end of my post.
(2017-12-02, 03:28 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I have followed only bits and pieces of these previous discussions. Was there ever a time, when you gave examples of what it was that was asked for (e.g. natural codes), that those examples were accepted? For example, is there a reason that pheromones or polymorphic crystals aren't codes?

Linda

Paul Wrote: We talked about those two things, along with the periodic table. None were accepted. I don't think we ever converged on a definition of "code" that includes the genetic code but excludes those things.

As I'm about to post, there seems to be some serious question begging going on.

~~ Paul

http://cosmicfingerprints.com/dna-atheis...ring-code/
(2017-12-02, 03:33 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: [ -> ]Please correct me if I'm wrong here. The logic appears to be:

1. I do not accept that there are any codes in nature that developed naturalistically.

2. There are codes designed by humans.

3. Therefore, all codes require intelligent design.

This is obvious question begging, so I must be incorrect. 

~~ Paul

I found this response in another discussion about semiotics in the genetic code.

Eric Anderson Wrote:Look, this is very simple. We don’t need to get into philosophical discussions about some panpsychism, who designed the designer, non-living designers, etc.

It is called an inference to the best explanation and it follows a very simple approach:

1. Semiotic systems are regularly seen to arise from intelligent agents. As a corollary, semiotic systems have never been known to arise from purely natural causes. Indeed, in every instance in which we see a semiotic system and know the provenance, it started with an intelligent agent.
2. There is a semiotic system in biology.
3. Therefore, the most likely explanation is that it came from an intelligent agent.

Is this deduction? Of course not. But it is a perfectly appropriate form of inductive reasoning and inferring to the best explanation.
(2017-12-02, 03:33 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: [ -> ]Please correct me if I'm wrong here. The logic appears to be:

1. I do not accept that there are any codes in nature that developed naturalistically.

2. There are codes designed by humans.

3. Therefore, all codes require intelligent design.

This is obvious question begging, so I must be incorrect. 

~~ Paul

I think talk of semiotics etc just tends to cloud this discussion, which is really one of combinatorial explosion. The thing that makes it so hard to conceive of a code being created without intelligence being involved, is that you have to bring together so much mechanism before anything works at all - the ribosomes, the enzymes that replicate the DNA,  (maybe the intermediate code of RNA could be skipped in the first version), etc.

Now  I used to argue this point with Lone Shaman, and I think eventually he saw my point, that yes, there is some ludicrously improbable possibility of all that mechanism being create by chance. However, it really isn't worth discussing that. Darwinism only got of the ground by postulating that survival of the fittest could guide us through some reasonably smooth fittness-space. The problem - which I am sure Darwin would understand - is that there obviously isn't a smooth fittness-space!

I am talking about the dawn of life, so the ribosomes might not be made of proteins, but they still have to be pretty complex things. The code is very much like a computer program - useless until it runs without crashing for at least some range of inputs! Useless stuff can't be selected for.

If you found an exposition of calculus chipped on a stone, you would instantly accept that it had been created by some people that had discovered calculus. Once you could decipher the writing, you would be left in no doubt that an intelligence had been involved. You would not (I think) accept any suggestion that this thing might have formed by some complex process of wind erosion! Now think of a microbe - inside is an exposition of a tiny subset of all possible proteins that have useful chemical or structural properties. The code is just as explicit as the marks on the rock, but the quantity of information conveyed is vastly greater.

David
nbtruthman Wrote:This is basically an argument by assertion. You want us to take your word for this. If you want to talk about proof, you have no proof that codes can evolve from chemicals, no proof that specification can evolve. Only some ingenious sketchy just-so stories. Only faith in an almost omnipotent capacity of nature to evolve anything small step by small step given enough time.  It just has to be accepted on faith, and the fact ignored that codes and specifications have only been observed to originate from intelligent agents. As I have mentioned, this concept is fundamentally in principle unfalsifiable and unscientific, because theoretically there could be an infinite number of logically possible (though vanishingly improbable) just-so stories, and falsifying them all would be impossible.
I don't understand why people think I need to provide a proof that a code can evolve, given enough time. Why not? What is the principle that prevents it? Why is a code special whereas apparently people believe that other mechanisms can evolve? In particular, if a proto-code* begins to evolve, is there some mechanism that stops it?

I also don't understand why people can say that the evolution of a code is a just-so story without doing a double take on the whole intelligent design thing.

~~ Paul

* Note that we haven't yet defined what a code is.
(2017-12-02, 07:11 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]http://cosmicfingerprints.com/dna-atheis...ring-code/

"The formal definition of a code according to Perlwitz and Waterman (see below) is a set of symbols that uniquely map a point in space “A” to a point in space “B.” In other words there is special symbolic correspondence between a letter or word (idea) and a real physical entity. The word “coffee” represents a beverage made from cocoa beans, for example. Symbolic relationships of this kind are only created in the mental world; they by definition do not exist in the purely material world."

The first sentence says that a code maps a point in space A to a point in space B. The second sentence suddenly asserts that space A is a space of ideas. How do we resolve the apparent inconsistency between those two sentences?

If the second sentence is to be assumed, then the process of translation from RNA to DNA does not involve a code.

~~ Paul