Why do I feel threatened?

I can definitely relate in my opinion. Despite all the evidence I've gathered that magic as I "remember" it is real and possible. the fact that I still can't do it myself directly, and haven't for years, and the drop in all paranormal stuff in my life in the last couple years in particular makes it really hard to believe the story of the memories. It just seems impossible when I compare my life as it currently is to what I used to be even just a decade earlier here let alone the stuff I did before this life. It seems impossible that I or anyone would have really gone as far as I remember going or pushing themselves that hard or in that way often out of sheer spite, indignation, or purpose. Let alone have slowly gathered a group of friends who were all just as driven and principled in their own ways. Then I remember that everyone in that group were all very broken people who's psychology had been destroyed and rebuilt multiple times and were pretty far from idyllic pinnacles of character, morality or sanity by some peoples standards. Half the reason I'm as lazy as I am right now is because I look back at some of that and can't see an emotionally healthy person and want to rebuild myself in a better, more stable way that I was.

I think I have quite large amounts of evidence for all of it in my opinion. Including showing that even independent of belief or knowledge of those memories my personality and drive was still the same. But a lot of it exists in individual little bits, but collectively I find it hard to ignore or explain away. Still, without those really big silver bullet things, like fully reattaining magic, or people appearing as full on apparitions (to be fair they did kinda do that) or just showing up physically, there's always going to be some doubt and anxiety.

I can definitely relate in my opinion. Despite all the evidence I've gathered that magic as I "remember" it is real and possible. the fact that I still can't do it myself directly, and haven't for years, and the drop in all paranormal stuff in my life in the last couple years in particular makes it really hard to believe the story of the memories. It just seems impossible when I compare my life as it currently is to what I used to be even just a decade earlier here let alone the stuff I did before this life. It seems impossible that I or anyone would have really gone as far as I remember going or pushing themselves that hard or in that way often out of sheer spite, indignation, or purpose. Let alone have slowly gathered a group of friends who were all just as driven and principled in their own ways. Then I remember that everyone in that group were all very broken people who's psychology had been destroyed and rebuilt multiple times and were pretty far from idyllic pinnacles of character, morality or sanity by some peoples standards. Half the reason I'm as lazy as I am right now is because I look back at some of that and can't see an emotionally healthy person and want to rebuild myself in a better, more stable way that I was.

I think I have quite large amounts of evidence for all of it in my opinion. Including showing that even independent of belief or knowledge of those memories my personality and drive was still the same. But a lot of it exists in individual little bits, but collectively I find it hard to ignore or explain away. Still, without those really big silver bullet things, like fully reattaining magic, or people appearing as full on apparitions (to be fair they did kinda do that) or just showing up physically, there's always going to be some doubt and anxiety.

I will say, to bring it back to the more general topic of survival, that I think the evidence for it is pretty overwhelming, though yes there's no single silver bullet piece that can be pointed to at the moment. However philosophically there really doesn't appear to be evidence for anything beyond existentialism or total neutrality. Certainly not that I've seen. All the stuff seems to be a very simple matter of things drifting to lowest stable energy states in my opinion. And even in cases where maybe there's actual beings that seem to be guiding things, that's still just their personal opinion and purpose, not necessarily that of those beneath them. There doesn't appear to be any evidence for karma beyond what James Matlock calls "dispositional karma" in reincarnation research. and quite frankly I think this is a great thing. It allows people to truly live their own lives, define who they are, succeed and fail, and follow their own purpose.

There was a person I talked top recently who was depressed about reincarnation research and how it seems to show a sort of cyclical torture due tot eh phenomena of birth defects. After I clarified that according to the research there doesn't appear to be any top down control they came back and said they had to take some time before responding because they had to deal with teh revulsion they felt at there being no top down control. I always find this interesting that people are so desperate to throw their power and individuality away. Quite frankly I consider it a sort of lazy suicide since its basically them saying "yeah life's dumb, I don't want to deal with it, here, do whatever you want, I'm out."

I guess its hard to figure out since I've had an overabundance of self defined purpose for a very, very long time and it makes no sense why anyone would not want to define themselves and live their own lives. IO mean it makes sense to network with others who share your purpose, but to subsume your identity to a group seems like something that would be considered an accident that happened slowly that a person didn't notice, and then gets corrected when they do, rather than the point.

And I guess I should rescind what I said about the group of friends I remember being broken people, sure technically that was true in a sense, but I've always felt that we all built ourselves back stronger and stronger each time, with added flexibility too, to a point. I've only rarely encountered the same level of experience from anyone down here, and when I have its usually a shallow version of it. And I don't think I should think of that strong sense of purpose that I and they have as some form of psychosis. even though in my case its caused some pretty severe psychological damage in other areas. Sense of purpose is incredibly rare in people tehse days, and when it exists it always seems to be externally defined. there's a few exceptions but its something I notice in hindsight.

The point is, I don't think a persons sense of purpose should rely on things like survival, externally defined morality or karma. You should decide for yourself what you care about and why, and who cares what anyone else thinks about it or even its rationality. sure there will still be an objective world out there that may or may not be what you think it is, and yes you may find yourself on the receiving end of aggressive violence just for thinking differently, but what's the point otherwise? You're dead either way, how and when it happens is largely irrelevant. And what happens after is even more irrelevant. You're alive right now and should take advantage of that.

The point is, I don't think a persons sense of purpose should rely on things like survival, externally defined morality or karma. You should decide for yourself what you care about and why, and who cares what anyone else thinks about it or even its rationality. sure there will still be an objective world out there that may or may not be what you think it is, and yes you may find yourself on the receiving end of aggressive violence just for thinking differently, but what's the point otherwise? You're dead either way, how and when it happens is largely irrelevant. And what happens after is even more irrelevant. You're alive right now and should take advantage of that.

I particularly vibed with this paragraph. Thanks Mediocre. 

Good on you Mediochre, I agree with Stan that was very good. I think about from time to time reincarnation and NDEs and how there's very little place for punishment. There's not a whole lot of evidence to say that someone like Hitler would have suffered compared to some saint. But that's just something we have to deal with. I think some people feel the need for the top down control because it makes thinking about it easier. If god controls it all then we know it's 'safe', we know how and why it happens. If it just 'is' then how's it all happen, why's it all there, does it really last forever ect ect. That's how I feel about it at least.

Michael Shermer had a good thing to say about the whole thing, which yknow is rare considering his position. It doesn't matter what happens in the afterlife, because we don't live in the afterlife. We live in this life, and that's what we need to make the most out of. We can deal with whatever happens next when it happens. That's why I try not to book on an afterlife too much, best to live for this life not prepare for the next one. Though of course it doesn't hurt to know a little, to be prepared.

I particularly vibed with this paragraph. Thanks Mediocre. 

Good on you Mediochre, I agree with Stan that was very good. I think about from time to time reincarnation and NDEs and how there's very little place for punishment. There's not a whole lot of evidence to say that someone like Hitler would have suffered compared to some saint. But that's just something we have to deal with. I think some people feel the need for the top down control because it makes thinking about it easier. If god controls it all then we know it's 'safe', we know how and why it happens. If it just 'is' then how's it all happen, why's it all there, does it really last forever ect ect. That's how I feel about it at least.

Michael Shermer had a good thing to say about the whole thing, which yknow is rare considering his position. It doesn't matter what happens in the afterlife, because we don't live in the afterlife. We live in this life, and that's what we need to make the most out of. We can deal with whatever happens next when it happens. That's why I try not to book on an afterlife too much, best to live for this life not prepare for the next one. Though of course it doesn't hurt to know a little, to be prepared.

Well, its how I try to be.

Question to self: why do I feel so threatened when I read comments by atheists and materialists?

The more I wonder about that question, the more reasons I come up with and I'm not sure how much weight to give to each. For example, my immediate, almost knee-jerk, answer was that my very existence feels threatened. Not my human, biological existence but my spiritual existence. I have come to the point where I consider that my spiritual existence will continue beyond my biological life on this planet. I believe that I have come to that point by looking at the evidence in a rational and open-minded way. But then all of that research and contemplation and philosophising is challenged by some sarcastic quip that I read in an article or book which characterises me as some gullible fool for believing such nonsense. I want to jump up and shout, "No, you're a fool!" like some insulted child in the playground.

Another reason: most of the atheists who's views represent that challenge are people I would otherwise respect. I would probably agree with them on so many other subjects from politics to ideas of cultural and social progress.  So, again, to have someone I respect tell me that I'm a fool really hurts.

Or perhaps it is the consensus? For me the only consensus that matters is the one held by people who think about their beliefs rather than just accept them as a matter of faith. And yet the consensus among rational, thinking people is atheism and materialism. This consensus is so heavily linked to science that to hold a different view has become heresy. I'm not anti-science yet I feel like an outcast among the people I would normally identify with.

Almost exactly ten years ago I found the Skeptiko forum and started to air my views. I wanted to take on the atheistic skeptics and show them that rational people could entertain ideas that were inimical to their worldview. But it soon became clear that these skeptics were every bit as dogmatic in their ideology as the religious people I had argued with since childhood. 

So here I was (and here I am), stuck between two worldviews. I come here to this forum, as I did to the Skeptiko forum previously, to find a modicum of kinship. I come to reassure myself that I am not a gullible fool. This is my oasis but am I correct in my fear that there is only hostile desert out there? What do you think?

Came upon this by accident and it was like stepping into the past and the old days of Skeptiko (I was Psiclops there altho somehow I seem to be under my name now)
My old pal Kamarling (Dave) you are still writing such erudite stuff - something I've sadly missed in the years since you've passed to the other side! (of the world)
For those wondering, Dave used to live near me in Bournemouth and we were both members of a discussion group where all these ideas were chucked around.
To be honest Dave was such a leading light that after he left the group fell apart.
For myself I still debate atheists - one in particular who drives me nuts and I'm asking myself if I feel threatened like Dave....less so I think because he shows so much ignorance that my little knowledge I feel shines through. I don't feel superior but not threatened by a mouse!
Sorry to hijack this thread but since I tussled on Skeptiko about these big issues I've almost exclusively been part of a dozen or so Facebook groups discussing all the UFO events since the big reveal of 2017 and now even a UAP Task Force and a commissioned report and talk of Congressional hearings.
The link in all this I see to what you're discussing here is that most deep thinkers can see this UFO thing is about consciousness not just nuts and bolts.
But at last the materialist side is going to clash with the spiritual side and at last those annoying materialists will have to eat their words - something I can hardly wait for with great anticipation.
I'm now 79 and really do hope for these big changes before I move on to where I suspect nobody cares or gets annoyed by atheists any more.
I think maybe I'll regret that - all peace and love may get a little boring after a few hundred years.
Tomorrow I will try to read to the end of this long thread.
And may I wish all of you whose names and handles I recognise - and the new bods too - very good wishes and I'm so glad you're keeping my dear friend Kamarling sane there in beautiful New Zealand.

[Laird]

I was Psiclops there altho somehow I seem to be under my name now

It looks like you were Psiclops here originally too:

https://psiencequest.net/forums/user-psiclops

Came upon this by accident and it was like stepping into the past and the old days of Skeptiko (I was Psiclops there altho somehow I seem to be under my name now)

I remember you from Skeptiko, though I was a relative latecomer on there and wasn't involved in the early days. I think I was sometimes a bit impatient, but I remember your rather gentle response to one of my posts, which reminded me to perhaps try to be more patient myself.

That certainty and arrogance, I think, comes from what I mentioned in my OP: consensus. 

Ironically, I think many of us left the Skeptiko forum because of the certainty and arrogance displayed by Alex and his moderators...