Why do I feel threatened?

Atheists rage against the wrongness of human suffering. With the danger of descending to Theistic rationalizations, it can be claimed that much of mankind's suffering is an inevitable accompaniment of our greatest blessings and benefits. I think that there is at least some truth to this.

Why pain, suffering?

(1) There is the observed regularity of natural law. The basic laws of physics appear to be cleverly designed to create conditions suitable for human life and development. It can be surmised that this intricate fine-tuned design is inherently a series of tradeoffs and balances, allowing and fostering human existence but also inevitably allowing "natural evil" to regularly occur. In other words, the best solution to the overall "system requirements" (which include furnishing manifold opportunities for humans to experience and achieve) inherently includes natural effects that cause suffering to human beings.

This points out that there may be logical and fundamental limitations to God's creativity (or whatever supreme intelligence is behind our physical reality). Maybe even He can't 100% satisfy all the requirements simultaneously. Maybe He doesn't have complete control over nature, because that would interfere with the essential requirements for creative and fulfilling human life. After all, human achievement requires imperfection and adverse conditions to exist as a natural part of human life.

(2) There is the clear need for human free will as one of the most important "design requirements". This inevitably leads to vast amounts of suffering caused by cruel acts of humans to each other. Unfortunately, there is no way to get around that one, except to make humans "zombies" or robots.

(3) Some suffering seems to be necessary to enable us to experience life in its fullest and to achieve the most. Often it is through suffering that we experience the deepest love of family and friends. 

Some of the great works of literature, art and music were the products of suffering.

Of course, the brute fact is still that there is an egregious amount of truly innocent and apparently meaningless suffering, that our instinct tells us is wrong whether or not there is a greater purpose or compensating good. It may be a mistake to ignore our instincts.

This actually made me recall another friend who sent an email to Susan Blackmore about a dream he had wherein he walks into a house and takes a book off a shelf. This dream was an accurate picture of the next day, including the exact text of the book. Blackmore actually said that this was in fact enough for a personal belief in Psi, though my guess is she'd never admit to that publicly.

Am I being too cynical to suggest that Blackmore likes the limelight? She is married to Adam Hart Davies who was, for years, a popular science presenter on British TV. She has regularly appeared on TV herself as the go-to sceptic along with Richard Wiseman and Chris French. It just wouldn't do for a TV sceptic to be seen to endorse a personal belief in Psi.

Of course, the brute fact is still that there is an egregious amount of truly innocent and apparently meaningless suffering, that our instinct tells us is wrong whether or not there is a greater purpose or compensating good. It may be a mistake to ignore our instincts.

I can't help but think that we find ourselves in a world which seems to have been set up for life to come and go in cycles. We are not in some kind of heavenly paradise where we don't get ill and die. The whole point seems to be that we DO die. Perhaps each of us dies many times of many different causes. That seems to be the point: live a life, experience the good and the bad, learn the lessons then come back again and learn more lessons.

Either there is a purpose to life or there isn't. If there isn't, then there is no God to rant at and hate: we are just at the mercy of random events pre-determined at the Big Bang. If there is a purpose, then we are probably meant to have all the different life experiences - maybe over multiple lifetimes. That said, humans could make life somewhat easier for themselves if they were less driven by selfishness. Some kind of recognition of our spiritual interconnectedness might alleviate a lot of suffering.

I mean just because life doesn't have a purpose doesn't mean a god wouldn't exist. Could just be throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks for all we know. I've always enjoyed HP Lovecraft and I reckon it's taught me the valuable lesson of not trying to guess at the though processes of unknowable primordial cosmic abominations. 

And we can psychoanalyse atheists all day there's a lot that goes into it. A lot of people seem to be very sheltered in the beliefs they're exposed to, I'd say like most western atheists ONLY know about the details of Christianity and even then probably only a fundamentalist version of that. They don't know about stuff like buddhism or hinduism, let alone something like deism completely removed from any religion. Like it's pretty easy to recognise what their anger is specifically directed at. Not to mention American and British atheism is very different than something like Germany, or here in Australia, very vocal and not lets live and let live. And then also, of course if god is real then they're gonna be angry at them they've got someone to blame, if there's no god then things just happen and people have to deal with it. 

The whole thing seems to be a rebellion against conformity to me, religion was the culture and counter culture was to go against it. The sheltered conservative upbringing. Now we've moved past it and we've seen how good it is and a lot of people are probably terrified of going back to superstition or ignorance and anything associated with religion. Then that effects science which sets up its boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable, effects celebrities, public intellectuals. Doesn't matter about truth this is what's acceptable now. I do wonder what the eventual counter culture to atheism will be.

I was trying to talk about Whitehead"s conception of God

Please pardon my ignorance but who is this Whitehead? You must have a brain the size of a planet to keep all this info from swamping it. It’s funny, because although I too ‘believe’ in some kind of God, until reading your post I hadn’t really thought about others with maybe similar ideas. Could you name a few others and maybe point me to their ideas of God if you have any writings close at hand?

Perhaps I’ve been content with not looking for others ideas because they might ‘pollute’ my own feelings about God. Strange, in that I’m still in half a mind to let it be, to leave my ideas alone. It’s quite a strong intuition I have, it’s saying ‘you don’t know, just be still and enjoy not knowing’. 

I feel I’m being shown the possibilities of finding deep contentment in ‘the journey’, rather than the destination. Sitting in an empty stadium can maybe be as satisfying as seeing it come alive with the magic that sporting events sometimes bring. Is this the (near?)perfection that is the essence of God?

I’m reminded of those moments that Elizabeth Gilbert talks about in her Ted talk, those times when the Light of God can’t help but shine through to this dimension. The dancers that she talks about, in a divine trance, are they in a similar state to Nadal and Federer when they’re at two sets all, taking the crowd along to a different (transcendent) level? Or a whole field of Rugby players that the big crowd are at one with? Such times transcend sport, or dance, or whatever they’re actually doing to become ‘divine’.

Is it that divinity I begin to sense when I feel the way I do even about my computer game, or can it be found almost anywhere that ‘perfection’ is truly strived for and nearly achieved? When effort, skill, talent, blood, sweat and tears combine and love cements it all together ? Is that what people report at the time others die, is it perhaps God’s Gratitude that is felt? Is that when ‘answers’ come as intuition to those that seek answers to deep questions? A saying that I have found a lot of truth in, is ‘the harder you practise, the luckier you get’. That alone adds to my own evidence that ‘some form of higher power’ exists. 

Perhaps that’s why I am content not knowing what others ideas about God are, maybe because deep down I somehow know that feelings trump ideas. In fact they both exist, and are probably equally valuable. 

Gee, I’ve made this far longer than originally planned, I hope you don’t find it too self indulgent?

It's funny, personally, many years ago I was kind of raging against God - I must have been about 19 years old at the time, and scribbled down some of my ideas on paper at the time. But when I came back to read those thoughts a few years later, I couldn't help but observe that my ideas had been somehow very 'small', my conception of god had been very limited. I abandoned that train of thought as no longer expressing the much broader ideas which had started to replace it.

For a while I didn't think much about God at all, it wasn't really relevant. But somewhere down the line when everything in my life started to fall apart, I felt the need to pray to a god I no longer believed in. I got a pretty rapid and greatly beneficial response. These days I do have some idea of God, but don't attempt any of the sorts of argumentation about it. For me such debates don't clarify anything, they tend to set up one small model after another and find fault with them. I'm left with a feeling of something very much bigger, but with no description of any sort.

I would compare my earlier stressing and worrying about the nature of god to be a bit like a seed growing and bursting out of its casing or shell, there's a burst of growth and the seed-case falls away as an irrelevance.

On a separate topic, I no longer feel that we die. It is certainly true that our bodies fall ill, and are frail in many other ways. But I don't particularly consider that my body represents 'me'. It is a bit like a counter or piece on a board in a game, it is representing me only in a narrow way within the confines of that game. When someone trips and tips the board onto the floor and all the pieces belonging to each player are scattered, we don't ourselves take notice, except sometimes be disappointed because we were in a 'winning' position on the board or happy because we were doing badly in that game. And none of that matters, that game is not us.

I should add not to take my reference to 'game' to be trivialising. There are things which I consider important. Nor did I intend to dismiss any of the difficulties which we go through in our own way. It was just a quick analogy to illustrate a thought.

I'm left with a feeling of something very much bigger, but with no description of any sort.

Can anyone else see the light shining from Typoz’s post?

I can't help but think that we find ourselves in a world which seems to have been set up for life to come and go in cycles. We are not in some kind of heavenly paradise where we don't get ill and die. The whole point seems to be that we DO die. Perhaps each of us dies many times of many different causes. That seems to be the point: live a life, experience the good and the bad, learn the lessons then come back again and learn more lessons.

Either there is a purpose to life or there isn't. If there isn't, then there is no God to rant at and hate: we are just at the mercy of random events pre-determined at the Big Bang. If there is a purpose, then we are probably meant to have all the different life experiences - maybe over multiple lifetimes. That said, humans could make life somewhat easier for themselves if they were less driven by selfishness. Some kind of recognition of our spiritual interconnectedness might alleviate a lot of suffering.

Very good, Dave also nbtruthman's above.

Please pardon my ignorance but who is this Whitehead? You must have a brain the size of a planet to keep all this info from swamping it.

Gee, I’ve made this far longer than originally planned, I hope you don’t find it too self indulgent?

In reverse order - Not at all, and sadly my knowledge is more broad than deep.

Re: Whitehead, oddly enough while it makes the mistake of associating lost virginity with coolness this joke meme actually covers a good bit of ground ->



But a more in depth look can be found here ->

Whitehead's Idea of God

by Jay McDaniel

...Yes, in one sense the people and butterflies are like partners in a dance, with God as the lead dancer.  God is trying to guide them into forms of dancing that are beautiful, joyous, and mutually enriching.   But God's power is not absolute.  What happens in the dance as a whole is an outcome of divine creativity and the universe's creativity, not divine creativity alone....

anything associated with religion

I'm not so sure this is true.  Its anecdotal, but I'm seeing a lot of young people (i.e., high school and college aged) that are much more engaged with religion than when I was their age (ages ago  ).  I theorize this may stem from the much less rigidly dogmatic households they were raised in as it was the prior generations who were struggling so much with the, typically Christian, dogma.