Non-Spiritual NDE's?

Hi. This is my first post in this site, and sorry if this topic was already discussed before. I'm not necessarily one of those militant atheists, but one thing that made me think were the NDE's whose individuals that had it were certain of the "eternal oblivion" after death proposed by most materialist philosophers.
One claimed that his peripheral vision was warping as his sense of self was fading away, other was drowning and felt nothing, but the account is incoherent because later he claimed to hear his own voice telling how badly he lived before the consciousness faded.
But please note that while I won't mention names due to respect, the one who drowned sounds like a troubled individual, as in a discussion he posted papers relating to DMT theories not well accepted even among materialists, accounts of people feeling "nothing" while being clinically dead, and rants about how he knows about eternal oblivion, the anxiety it gives, and insults against Christianity.

Hi. This is my first post in this site, and sorry if this topic was already discussed before. I'm not necessarily one of those militant atheists, but one thing that made me think were the NDE's whose individuals that had it were certain of the "eternal oblivion" after death proposed by most materialist philosophers.
One claimed that his peripheral vision was warping as his sense of self was fading away, other was drowning and felt nothing, but the account is incoherent because later he claimed to hear his own voice telling how badly he lived before the consciousness faded.
But please note that while I won't mention names due to respect, the one who drowned sounds like a troubled individual, as in a discussion he posted papers relating to DMT theories not well accepted even among materialists, accounts of people feeling "nothing" while being clinically dead, and rants about how he knows about eternal oblivion, the anxiety it gives, and insults against Christianity.

It would seem odd to have what is classically called an NDE and come away with the conclusion that there is no afterlife. I mean maybe if a person had a nonsensical NDE, or an NDE that seemed to suggest something more akin to a dream that a visionary experience, they could doubt other people's NDEs but that to me is different than an NDE confirming the materialist insistence that there is no life after death. There are spiritual traditions that suggest some kind of oblivion is the ultimate goal and only true freedom, though usually this is a projection onto concepts like Nirvana where it isn't clear what Buddha (or Hindu mystics before/after him) necessarily meant.

Also...a person who felt nothing would by definition not have had an NDE?

If we can't read the accounts ourselves there's little we can do but weigh what seems like very few cases against the history of NDEs, which goes back quite far and spans the globe. I'd recommend the books of Bruce Greyson and Gregory Shushan to [get] an understanding of the medical and historical aspects of NDEs, and the book The Self Does Not Die for a series of investigated NDEs that point to an afterlife.

[Laird]

Moved to the SvP forum where this sort of post seems more appropriate.

There are indeed problems with those accounts, in the first the person did not detail exactly what caused it, in the second the account is detailed in contraditory ways and the poor mental state of the individual could cloud his thoughts.
Those experiences may be different because they claimed to feel their consciousness fading away instead of simply becoming unconscious instantly.
Some speculate based on accounts that the afterlife is a dream like realm of pure thought shaped by the beliefs and experiences they had in life, so individuals that were atheists would simply go to the void they believe in theory, but this contradicts the accounts of non-believers that had mystical NDE's...

There are indeed problems with those accounts, in the first the person did not detail exactly what caused it, in the second the account is detailed in contraditory ways and the poor mental state of the individual could cloud his thoughts.
Those experiences may be different because they claimed to feel their consciousness fading away instead of simply becoming unconscious instantly.
Some speculate based on accounts that the afterlife is a dream like realm of pure thought shaped by the beliefs and experiences they had in life, so individuals that were atheists would simply go to the void they believe in theory, but this contradicts the accounts of non-believers that had mystical NDE's...

I think it is a mistake to imagine that there are hard and fast rules for these experiences. They do vary and, as you say, persoanl beliefs and lifetime experiences do seem to influence the experience greatly. But so much may be subjective so we can't know the mind of the person going through it.

I've read accounts from lifelong atheists who had very similar experiences to those of more religiously inclined individuals. However, the being of light that seems to be common to many accounts might be described as Jesus or even God by some and just a formless, loving presence by others. Sadly (for me) most of my family and friends are atheists who tease me about my strange beliefs but one of them related a story from a friend of hers who died on the operating table but was resucitated. She proudly confirmed her beliefs that there is nothing after death but her "nothing" was - "it was just dark - no lights, no tunnel, no spirits". I had to comment that her friend sounds like she was aware of something even if it was dark and empty space.

Also, only between 10% and 12% of those who come back to life remember anything at all about the time they were gone. I know it is not a valid comparison but I can't remember anything from hours of sleeping but, strangely, even in a very dark room with no clues, if I wake in the night (which I do often at my age), I seem to have a knack of knowing what time it is (usuallly to within a few minutes), so I must be aware of something even though I have no memories.

But please note that while I won't mention names due to respect,

Unless this relates to someone known personally to you, surely they have either made their experience public, or they haven't? How can we sensibly discuss the issue without even seeing first hand what they say happened?

I'd imagine that there must be many confused accounts relating to near drownings and the like that don't reach as far as an NDE.

The mention of an NDE with 'nothing' or oblivion, firstly requires some consideration. If someone describes this as their NDE then presumably there was something, the very fact that they could recall and describe the experience meant they still were experiencing. The alternative interpretation, simply losing consciousness and eventually waking up with no recall at all would not really qualify, it might just be an inability to remember.

It does sound like the beginning stage of some NDEs which are described as the person finding themself in a black featureless space and then after some indefinite elapsed time a tiny point of light is noticed in the distance. Then perhaps the light gets larger and brighter. What follows may unfold in different ways. Sometimes the light is interpreted as the distant exit from a tunnel through which they travel and emerge somewhere. Other times the light becomes a spiritual being or guide, which becomes very large and bright as it moves nearer.

Hence when someone says they know there is nothing because that is what they experienced, I'm tempted to consider that they may have simply exited from the NDE before anything else happened. Or possibly that they are unable to remember which is a practical difficulty facing all these investigations.


As an aside, I am also reminded of my own experience, recorded here:
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-w...e-was-that

That was about forty years ago now so it's hard to remember all of it. It wasn't an NDE as such but might be a related experience. It included a vast emptiness, but I was experiencing it, it was not non-existence, it felt very profound in a way that words don't express.

Also, only between 10% and 12% of those who come back to life remember anything at all

That figure is too low across the board, Dave. About 20% have NDE's but nearly 40% feel they are somehow 'aware' (after their hearts have stopped) but can't remember any specific details.

That figure is too low across the board, Dave. About 20% have NDE's but nearly 40% feel they are somehow 'aware' (after their hearts have stopped) but can't remember any specific details.

I think I have read those figures more than once but I'll bow to your superior knowledge of the details. However, I think the point was made and that your correction only goes to enforce that point.

I think the point was made and that your correction only goes to enforce that point.

Agreed !