Imagine a brick hitting a window...

Do open windows count ?

What, can we say, is going on?



edit: "Mod Plus" in that this is not meant to trigger a new discussion about human free will. Though we might end up talking about mental causation (b/c Idealism, Panpsychism, Theism) let's just stick with the brick and the window as the focal point thanks.

That I'm imagining a brick hitting a window.

Do open windows count ?

If you are volunteering your abode to run trials, sure.

If you are volunteering your abode to run trials, sure.

If it was a quantum window it could be open and closed at the same time.

I suspect some incoming pseudoprofunduty, but I think we need to know what you think is going on, Sci.

"Incoming pseudoprofunduty"?

Is this what is known as 'getting your retaliation in first'?

I suspect some incoming pseudoprofunduty, but I think we need to know what you think is going on, Sci.

"Incoming pseudoprofunduty"?

Is this what is known as 'getting your retaliation in first'?

I mean I do think it's amusing to be accused of pseudo-profoundity from some who talks about the sublime miraculous nature of matter...  

There's nothing sneaky going on. I just think the free will thread - as predicted - hit an inevitable impasse so I figure starting from just talking about causation at a basic level might yield some agreement.

What, can we say, is going on?



edit: "Mod Plus" in that this is not meant to trigger a new discussion about human free will. Though we might end up talking about mental causation (b/c Idealism, Panpsychism, Theism) let's just stick with the brick and the window as the focal point thanks.

I'm inclined to impatiently just outline the physicalist account of the causal chain, while noting the unknowns, which greatly outweigh the knowns. To make the outline manageable it ignores the much more complex underlying quantum mechanical process going on at the subatomic level. 

1. A human agent decides to pick up and throw the brick at a window. The true nature of this agency and will and choice and intentionality are not understood, and may be unknowable, part of the Hard Problem.

2. The human agent picks up the brick, aims it and throws it. The true nature of the interface between the agent's consciousness and the nerves activating the shoulder and arm muscles used to physically throw the brick is unknown and may be unknowable, since the true nature of consciousness itself and how it manifests in the physical is unknown. 

2a. Under control of both the consciousness and the autonomic nervous system the requisite muscles contract in a coordinated action to propel the brick through the air. The physics of the causing of muscle contraction by nerve impulses is known, but their ultimate nature in themselves is not known or ever likely to be. This process converts biological chemical energy released in the muscles into kinetic energy imparted to the brick through the interface between the hand and the brick. This interface is essentially the contact of hand molecules with brick molecules, actually close near contact of the outer electron shells of the two surfaces of molecules, where like (negative) charges repel. 

The ultimate nature of the electron - electron repulsion mechanism of physical contact between the hand and brick is unknown and may never be known, since it is basically the mystery of the ultimate true nature of matter, energy and fields. Physics just describes the nature of the relationships between parameters, not their ultimate true nature in themselves.

3. The brick flies through the air with a trajectory which follows to a very close approximation Newton's laws of motion factoring in air resistance and the gravitational constant. As with 2a the reason these laws apply and what is their nature in themselves is unknown and maybe unknowable.

4. The brick contacts the window and shatters it. As in 2a the mechanism of the contact and glass shattering is known relationally in the physics of the repulsion between the outer electron shells of the brick atoms and the atoms of the glass surface and the transfer of momentum and kinetic energy from the brick into the glass through that interface. But the ultimate nature of this interface (what it is in itself) is not known and probably will never be known.

The ultimate nature of the electron - electron repulsion mechanism of physical contact between the hand and brick is unknown and may never be known, since it is basically the mystery of the ultimate true nature of matter, energy and fields. Physics just describes the nature of the relationships between parameters, not their ultimate true nature in themselves.

3. The brick flies through the air with a trajectory which follows to a very close approximation Newton's laws of motion factoring in air resistance and the gravitational constant. As with 2a the reason these laws apply and what is their nature in themselves is unknown and maybe unknowable.

4. The brick contacts the window and shatters it. As in 2a the mechanism of the contact and glass shattering is known relationally in the physics of the repulsion between the outer electron shells of the brick atoms and the atoms of the glass surface and the transfer of momentum and kinetic energy from the brick into the glass through that interface. But the ultimate nature of this interface (what it is in itself) is not known and probably will never be known.

Thanks! Want to remove free will and thus human agency from this discussion at present so let's stick with this part going forward.

I don't think I'm seeing where you are taking this, Sci. Steve001 and malf had their obligatory sneer while assuming that you are looking for something profound in a thoroughly mundane event, easily described by classical mechanics. Then nbtruthman described those mundane mechanics and added a little quantum mystery. If you remove human causation from the discussion we do seem to be left with the mundane mechanics.

I suspect a hint may be with the fanciful allusion to butterflies in the other thread. i.e. why does something predictable happen at all? The laws governing the mundane mechanics are taken for granted but why are there laws? I'll stop there because I may be on the wrong track entirely.