The Poised Realm & trans-Turing machines

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I'd mentioned this in the thread on Catchable Quantum Jumps, but I think it deserves its own thread.

So more info from Kauffman's patent ->


Quote:Described herein are several new systems and uses of systems operating in what is termed herein as the "Poised Realm.” By “Poised Realm, it is meant a physical system that does not exhibit fully quantum behavior nor exhibits fully classical behavior. In this sense, the system is “poised', or even can “hover between the quantum and classical worlds. By Poised Realm, we mean any physical means or procedure to achieve Such a system poised between quantum and classical behavior, including as bounding limits, fully quantum coherent behavior and fully classical behavior.



Quote:In one characterization of the Poised Realm, we use two independent features of, without loss of generality, open quantum systems. The degree of decoherence and/or recoherence is one feature. In addition to their quantum, decohering, recohering, or classical behavior, physical systems may also be classified according to the degree of order or chaotic behavior that they exhibit along an order-criticality-chaos spectrum. Systems within the Poised Realm may be characterized by any degree of order along this spectrum. In some embodiments, the physical systems described herein do not exhibit full order or chaos and are thus also “poised' between order and chaos. Below we describe new theorems which establish that WITHIN the poised realm itself, ie not classical, critical poised realm systems in the presence of decoherence lose coherence most slowly, that is in a power law fashion...



Quote:Thus in at least one characterization of the Poised Realm, the Poised Realm may be illustrated by a two-dimensional coordinate system having as its y-axis (the vertical) the degree of quantum behavior, stretching from fully quantum behavior at the “origin' to fully classical behavior “up they axis, typically by decoherence and movement down the Y axis toward quantum behavior via recoherence, and on the X-axis (the horizontal) the degree of order, stretching from full order to full chaos (see FIG. 1). The area on the graph between fully quantum and fully classical behavior is at least one definition of the "Poised Realm.” They axis in FIG. 1 can be infinite in that classical behavior in some circumstances, in particular via increasing quantum decoherence, can be approached as closely as wished, i.e., achieved “For All Practical Purposes' (FAPP).
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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  • stephenw
Is There A 'Poised Realm' Between the Quantum and Classical Worlds?

S.Kauffman


Quote:But something radically new has emerged in recent physics: The transformation from quantum to classical is now thought by a number of physicists to be reversible. That is, the quantum possibilities can decohere to the classical world of actual events or entitities, then recohere to quantum possibilities! Assume for the moment this is correct, I'll give the grounds for it below.

If quantum can convert to classical and classical can convert to quantum via decoherence and recoherence, then there may be an entire new "Poised Realm" between quantum and classical worlds. Why? Well, it takes time for a quantum system to decohere, often on the order of a femtosecond, or 10 to the -15 seconds. That sounds short, but the shortest time scale in the universe is the Planck time scale of 10 to the - 43 seconds, so 10 to the 28th Planck moments pass while decohrence happens. Conversely, presumably, but not surely, it takes time for recoherence to happen. No data are available, but lets say a femtosecond. During these intervals, the quantum system is losing coherence in some or all of its "quantum degrees of freedom", or recohering with respect to some or all of its quantum degrees of freedom. Thus, there must be time periods where the system is in my "Poised Realm.

Then IF the quantum to classical conversion is reversible, it is logically possible that a physical system can remain in the Poised Realm for a long time. I explore next what this might mean, for it is an entirely unexplored area of physics, with possible implications for consciousness.


Compare this idea of a Poised Realm that the quantum transitions through to make the to-the-naked-eyes-observable "classical" universe and that of the the continuous motion of catchable jumps, those islands of certainty in a sea of unpredictability.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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  • stephenw
(2021-01-23, 12:25 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Is There A 'Poised Realm' Between the Quantum and Classical Worlds?

S.Kauffman




Compare this idea of a Poised Realm that the quantum transitions through to make the to-the-naked-eyes-observable "classical" universe and that of the the continuous motion of catchable jumps, those islands of certainty in a sea of 

Might just be me be I can’t distill the significance of it.
(2021-01-23, 02:55 PM)Obiwan Wrote: Might just be me be I can’t distill the significance of it.

Just that there is a continuous "distance" traveled from quantum "chaos" to classical "order".

Basically the latest science suggesting these catchable jumps, where quantum behavior approaches something closer to the classical, is evidence of these ideas Kauffman had years ago.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(2021-01-23, 06:36 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Just that there is a continuous "distance" traveled from quantum "chaos" to classical "order".

Basically the latest science suggesting these catchable jumps, where quantum behavior approaches something closer to the classical, is evidence of these ideas Kauffman had years ago.

Sorry still no clue. I have crayons if that will help? Smile
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  • Sciborg_S_Patel
(2021-01-23, 06:58 PM)Obiwan Wrote: Sorry still no clue. I have crayons if that will help? Smile

Heh I think you might be looking for something bigger than what I had in mind, which is just that the movement from quantum level weirdness to everyday classical nature is a continuous shift.

It both takes time (recoherence/decoherence) and there are gradations between the two levels.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell



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