Renaming the "Skeptic vs. Proponent Discussions" subforum

Just because people aren't interested in a particular poster's techniques doesn't therefore mean people aren't interested in practices that could develop Psi.

Personally I think the questions of morality and whether there is some benevolence in the universe can have far deeper impact than whether Psi exists.

That said, perhaps we should re-ignite the idea of the Exploration Forum for potential practitioners as it's not a completely unfair criticism that both skeptics and proponents should make an honest effort at figuring this stuff out for ourselves.

That said, perhaps we should re-ignite the idea of the Exploration Forum for potential practitioners as it's not a completely unfair criticism that both skeptics and proponents should make an honest effort at figuring this stuff out for ourselves.

I'm in favour of that. I've always considered that any belief or idea should, where possible, be founded in practice, in actual experimental observations.


From a personal perspective it is a matter of timing. Decades ago I did hands-on study of OOBEs, perhaps in the grand scheme of things I didn't get very far, but far enough to validate the existence of the phenomenon, which prior to that time I'd considered to be a dreamy fiction. Am I still researching that area? Not actively. As the decades pass, different priorities arise in our lives, one way or another.

On the other hand, dreams - this has always been an interest. One can look for such phenomenon as telepathy or precognition within dreams, at the very least. But nowadays I'd just take that as read. My interest in dreams is mainly now as a source of wisdom and understanding. Perhaps this again is a personal thing, but far from the chaotic muddle which conventional belief would have it, I find clarity there.

Another area, past-life regression. There are a number of guided regression recordings available on youtube. This could certainly be an area of investigation for anyone.

So, my suggestions, OOBE, dream and past-life research are areas accessible to all, though some degree of effort is involved. If one wants to learn to paint, or to play a new musical instrument, it requires investment of enthusiasm, time and energy. I can certainly relate to the sense of frustration over endless debates on various matters, these are a focus of time, energy and enthusiasm. I do think that some or a lot of that energy could be better invested in hands-on experience.

Not to say this applies to everyone of course. A number of members have undoubtably gone deeper into some of these things than I have. But maybe they don't post here so much. Maybe by definition, those who are more interested in doing rather than talking are away somewhere else, doing.

Skeptics clearly will claim they are the victims, and I personally see a lot this crying victim as manipulative playacting or an example of the impossible chasm between not just worldviews but the behavior of those who we see as on our side.

So when skeptics air their grievances, they are characterized as crying victim or manipulative playacting. Yet you and others spend as much time or more airing your grievances, without the expectation that you will be similarly characterized. How is that helpful? And not only is this yet another example of the asymmetry in how skeptics are perceived, in contrast to how proponents see themselves, but you will find that there is also an asymmetry in who starts the name-calling.

I get that this is a proponent forum, so proponents will get special consideration here. But under these circumstances, why are skeptics even here? Why argue over the naming of the place where you expect skeptics to hang out? Why not just get rid of it altogether?

So that's pretty much an impasse.

Just use the Skeptic's Corner or whatever it is to becalled to corral worthless posts about someone being a damn fool then refusing to provide any arguments, or trolling posts of corpses or those who are disabled, accusations about how proponents lack "testosterone", etc.

How is you bringing up ancient grievances not "crying victim" and "manipulative playacting"? 

If people think that kind of behavior is meant to encourage discussion not sure what anyone can do but create a playpen where that kind of nonsense is tolerated. Like Player vs Player section of those whose idea of fun is spoiling everyone else's good time.

So why are we here? If this isn't a place to discuss psi because we are all interested in it, but rather a place where only certain kinds of discussions about psi can take place and the rest will be characterized with a string of epithets, why include the latter?

Linda

My experience aligns with Linda's. Proponents seem hyper obsessed with arguing about how special they are and how much the universe loves them. Anything that threatens that worldview gets attacked viciously. Case and point, you have a guy here who has figured out how to induce shared dreams and who is actively working to develop direct telekinetic abilities who even has a working model of how they work along with some math and numerous successful experiments proving the concepts. 


But when I post my stuff in the experiments section, a section I asked for creation of, is there any response? Are there people asking questions about the techniques or trying it themselves and recording their results? No, because everyone's too busy arguing about morality and meaning among other useless emotional hippy garbage. You want parapsychology to be seen as a serious science? Maybe try doing things that actually contribute to it then, instead of whining about skeptics.

You should value the sneers of skeptics, they should motivate you not discourage you. Truth is best meted out through conflict. Otherwise you just have the pansy 'God is a mystery' bullshit from the middle ages all over again. Every other established science had to run through the gauntlet of truth before being accepted. Every one of them had their armies of sneering skeptics, so get off your high horses, you're not special.

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining about the gauntlet of truth, which here also applies to what skeptics propose. I'm not even complaining about the insults and attacks, per se. It's that insults and attacks are used in lieu of discussion and of addressing critical questions.

I also perform my own personal experiments. I have discussed them in detail in the past. I do not do so here for two reasons. I am not allowed to post in the "Extended Consciousness" forum (I was only allowed to join under that condition). And in the past, sharing my personal experiences was used as an excuse to dox me. I have no issue with anyone knowing who I am (I'm not anybody special, nor have I given false information I will be caught out on), but a few forum members scared me with respect to the safety of myself and my family. The discussion on doxing here gave me no confidence that the same thing wouldn't happen here if I shared personal information.

Linda

We seem to have moved off topic. I wonder whether a separate thread might be more appropriate for some of the material being posted here.

but a few forum members scared me with respect to the safety of myself and my family. The discussion on doxing here gave me no confidence that the same thing wouldn't happen here if I shared personal information.

Linda

 
Good grief !!  Hands up those dastardly believers who threatened Linda with a rude emoji ?  

If that's your example, then it proves my point.

It is but one example and no, it doesn't prove your point.  It proves your bias.  If it makes you feel better to believe you've won the point; good on you.

It is but one example and no, it doesn't prove your point.  It proves your bias.  If it makes you feel better to believe you've won the point; good on you.

It isn't about "winning". It's about hoping you are able to understand my point, regardless of whether or not you then go on to agree with it.

You referenced "holding up a mirror". I'm biased. You're biased. The way to move beyond that is to look for asymmetries. Two identical behaviors which are treated differently would be an example of an asymmetry. Another would be an asymmetry in what is regarded as equivalently pejorative - "immaterialist" (as far as I know, nobody holding a non-material or anti-material perspective objects to the term - please correct me if I'm mistaken) or "blind materialist faith" (which, as far as I know, would be objectionable to everyone who isn't anti-material).

To bring this back to the original topic, would a gentler name for the SvP forum alter your perspective/behaviour away from deserved attack and more towards cooperation?

Linda

I had another idea about a new name.

So when skeptics air their grievances, they are characterized as crying victim or manipulative playacting. Yet you and others spend as much time or more airing your grievances, without the expectation that you will be similarly characterized. How is that helpful? And not only is this yet another example of the asymmetry in how skeptics are perceived, in contrast to how proponents see themselves, but you will find that there is also an asymmetry in who starts the name-calling.

I get that this is a proponent forum, so proponents will get special consideration here. But under these circumstances, why are skeptics even here? Why argue over the naming of the place where you expect skeptics to hang out? Why not just get rid of it altogether?

How is you bringing up ancient grievances not "crying victim" and "manipulative playacting"? 

So why are we here? If this isn't a place to discuss psi because we are all interested in it, but rather a place where only certain kinds of discussions about psi can take place and the rest will be characterized with a string of epithets, why include the latter?

Linda

As I said, it's either manipulative playacting or a sign that there is such a chasm between perceptions that we aren't going to see eye-to-eye.

I dislike bullies, and have no problem pointing out their hypocrisy when they try the skeptic tactic of marketing-via-insults. Not planning on stopping on calling out any bully casting aspersions to manipulate the debate, especially when the posts are lacking in substance/value.

If someone doesn't want me to bring up their past intellectual failures that show what a hypocrite they are, simple solution is to change their behavior to what's expected of adults.

I notice you've ignored the specifics I've given of terrible behavior, but really I'm not interested in putting any member on trial unless there's a real outcome to it - such as their permanent banning from this forum to improve quality of discussion. Otherwise it's a trial that is a waste of time for everyone involved and unfair to the specific person being criticized.


I don't see what this has to do with discussions of Psi, or any other subject, in general. SvP seems like a place people can post their criticism of parapsychology to their heart's content, if not I'd take it up with the mods/site-owners.