Psi phenomena as tricks

I agree that the more outlandish claims need to be debunked, and even that Randi's Prize may have been useful in that respect.

Hoaxing legitimate researchers is a lot more problematical, and it has to be questionable whether Randi's hoax achieved anything useful, given that the normal process of peer review dealt with the problem.

The real problem is when people jump from the area that Randi was involved in and draw sweeping conclusions about the whole of parapsychology. For example, it's often said that the fact that no one claimed the Prize proves that psi doesn't exist, despite the fact that the terms of the Prize specifically disallowed the kind of lengthy study building up statistical evidence that is typically used by parapsychologists.

As far as I get, the real problem with the Prize is that it was all or nothing. Since psi phenomena are rarely accurate and sometimes even pretty random, maybe the challenge isn't the best way to test them.

Yet, there have been a thousand or so people trying to claim it and failing, most of them getting exposed as frauds. I don't find hatred towards Randi much justified, he is a bit cocky and arrogant but we have to give it to him, most of the times he is right. Who knows, maybe we would have thought that Uri Geller really had powers without him biasing all the research.

I agree that the more outlandish claims need to be debunked, and even that Randi's Prize may have been useful in that respect.

Hoaxing legitimate researchers is a lot more problematical, and it has to be questionable whether Randi's hoax achieved anything useful, given that the normal process of peer review dealt with the problem.

The real problem is when people jump from the area that Randi was involved in and draw sweeping conclusions about the whole of parapsychology. For example, it's often said that the fact that no one claimed the Prize proves that psi doesn't exist, despite the fact that the terms of the Prize specifically disallowed the kind of lengthy study building up statistical evidence that is typically used by parapsychologists.

Yet the fact remains a lot of honest folks claiming psi abilities never demonstrated them. There are or were numerous monetary challenges similar to the MDC worldwide. No one to my knowledge ever claimed the prize money. Do you know of Preminand (sp) founder of the Indian Skeptical Society. In all of his travels throughout India not once did he ever find a demonstration of psi.

Yet the fact remains a lot of honest folks claiming psi abilities never demonstrated them. There are or were numerous monetary challenges similar to the MDC worldwide. No one to my knowledge ever claimed the prize money. Do you know of Preminand (sp) founder of the Indian Skeptical Society. In all of his travels throughout India not once did he ever find a demonstration of psi.

One component of PSI ability and the difficulties of studying it, is that when you have people who are too, let's say 'negative' as a general term, it affects the outcome in such that, it doesn't happen at all, or poorly, compared to if people are 'willing' them on, for example. I say this from memory, perhaps it was Dean Radin who actually wrote about this phenomenon and can 'back it up' in a scientific sense. 

Not saying you are wrong Steve001, just pointing out a 'side' to the overall story.

One component of PSI ability and the difficulties of studying it, is that when you have people who are too, let's say 'negative' as a general term, it affects the outcome in such that, it doesn't happen at all, or poorly, compared to if people are 'willing' them on, for example. I say this from memory, perhaps it was Dean Radin who actually wrote about this phenomenon and can 'back it up' in a scientific sense. 

Not saying you are wrong Steve001, just pointing out a 'side' to the overall story.

Sorry but the idea that "my powers don't work because you don't believe in them" is clearly an excuse. It's something this deluded, or fraudolent, people tell when they get exposed as fakes. Psi, after 150 years of research, is still mostly based on nothing and I find the term "woo" still applicable to most of it. Researchers such as Radin are willing to accept as evidence clearly biased data and experiments, they are resdy to accept "woo" as evidence.

The classical "my powers didn't work because of you" you can find in fake chi/martial arts videos, where masters of no touch chi energy (pure form of woo) get beaten in seconds by amateur MMA fighters.

The Ganzfeld experiment seems somewhat similar the NDE OBE, where as the classic NDE OBE is under reduced power with a consequent loss of sensory input, in the Ganzfeld a deliberate attempt is made to still sensory input in a wakeful receiver.  

Some of the RV experiments gave the RV subjects sketches to a judge, who saw both the target, and the unique sketch, and made an association between them. Unique patterns that are shared classically amongst very few people, seem to be able to increase the probability of a non-classical connection between the sharers, as we see in Yoichiro Saka's successful Sony ESP experiments. In my view it's actually exposing things like... how we actually learn.

I'd say OBEs in NDEs are much stronger than Ganzfeld and yeld much more accurate results. The body of veridical evidence for them is really huge.

I'd say OBEs in NDEs are much stronger than Ganzfeld and yeld much more accurate results. The body of veridical evidence for them is really huge.

The problem is that for obvious reasons it's not easy to do controlled experiments with NDEs, so the evidence is mainly anecdotal, in the sense that it's a collection of people's reports of what happened to them in unplanned, uncontrolled conditions.

You said before you were concerned about the evidence for psi just being the result of chance. The advantage of experimental methods like the Ganzfeld is that it's possible to put a precise figure on the probability of the results happening by chance. That's practically impossible when you're dealing with a collection of unplanned experiences.

The problem is that for obvious reasons it's not easy to do controlled experiments with NDEs, so the evidence is mainly anecdotal, in the sense that it's a collection of people's reports of what happened to them in unplanned, uncontrolled conditions.

You said before you were concerned about the evidence for psi just being the result of chance. The advantage of experimental methods like the Ganzfeld is that it's possible to put a precise figure on the probability of the results happening by chance. That's practically impossible when you're dealing with a collection of unplanned experiences.

I agree, but accuracy in some cases is striking. It's really high in NDE OBEs when corroborated by medical staff. Also, what is really interesting is that it may be happening during a flat EEG.

"Bad religion is arrogant, self righteous, dogmatic and intolerant.
And so is bad science.
But unlike religious fundamentalists, scientific fundamentalists do not realize that their opinions are based on faith.
They think they know the truth."
Rupert Sheldrake.

"Bad religion is arrogant, self righteous, dogmatic and intolerant.
And so is bad science.
But unlike religious fundamentalists, scientific fundamentalists do not realize that their opinions are based on faith.
They think they know the truth."
Rupert Sheldrake.

Broadly true, though of course religious fundamentalists also think they know the truth - they've just come about it through faith.