Mega-thread for help with rebuttals against skeptical talking points

Well I skimmed his profile for stuff relevant to NDEs and I don't think so. Though to be fair, not having records on hand can be said for plenty of people online claiming to have had NDEs, even NDERF (though I think some monitoring is used). But I suppose the points I made regarding the questionable authenticity are appropriate then, unless someone is able to find on his profile where he explains what caused his NDE or why we should believe him.

It was only today I saw a Professor Emeritus of Psychology say that NDEs 'are actually very variable' on Quora and just a product of hypoxia/anoxia. I then looked up his work on Google Scholar, and none of it was really relevant to NDEs, especially none of his most 'recent' work.

With regard to NDERF accounts, I suspect that some of them at least are likely fraudulent. It's not a criticism of Jeff Long, I'm sure he knows that and he does his best to monitor them but it's so easy to make one up, he couldn't possibly know.

With regard to NDERF accounts, I suspect that some of them at least are likely fraudulent. It's not a criticism of Jeff Long, I'm sure he knows that and he does his best to monitor them but it's so easy to make one up, he couldn't possibly know.

That’s one of the main reasons I prefer videos. It might be easy to make them up, but I don’t think it’s easy to act convincingly if you’re filmed talking about it. Another reason I prefer older NDEs, at a time when they were rare, and nobody really knew about them. NDErs making videos at that time had very little to gain, and much to lose.

In regards to Novella's post, I think Bernardo's rebuttal was good. It came off a bit like Novella was exaggerating evidence and studies, and according to what I found on an old Skeptiko thread, this isn't the first time he's done this:

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/na...post-72709

He made a claim in an interview that the drug naloxone blocks receptors in the brain and can cause a negative NDE. IIRC, Novella never cited the studies on this and never ended up sending them to Alex. Is this true, or has this been addressed?

Anyways, Ninshub helpfully pointed out where Novella was likely sourcing his claim:

This is from Near-Death Experiences: A Neurophysiologic Explanatory Model by
Melvin L. Morse, M.D.
David Venecia, Jr., M.D.
Jerrold Milstein, M.D.
in the J. of Near Death Studies, fall 1989, p. 50

We searched the medical literature without success for other agents or psychological processes that could cause NDEs or OBEs. For example, studies of hypoxia, other hallucinogens, psychotic conditions, or intensive care unit stress syndromes do not produce NDEs. One study described a complex hallucination in a patient on narcotics, reversed by naloxone (Judson & Wiltshaw, 1983). Careful review of that patient's experience revealed that it lacked most of the descriptive elements of NDEs, including an OBE, and that the patient was semiconscious during the experience. Although that case has been cited as clinical evidence that perhaps endorphin systems are involved with NDEs, it is unlikely that that patient had an NDE. Naloxone, which the patient was treated with, has been well documented to cause very similar hallucinations, including a sense of soullessness and paranoid ideation. These elements, which are seen in drug-induced hallucinations, are not seen in NDEs (Cahal, 1957).

This is from Susan Blackmore's site, taken from The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience (I gather it's her article):

Occasionally, NDEs change from pleasant to hellish, as occurred in one seventy-two-year old cancer patient who was administered naloxone. His pleasant NDE turned to horror and despair as the friendly creatures morphed into the doctors treating him—suggesting that the naloxone (a morphine antagonist) had blocked the endorphins that were providing the pleasant feelings (Judson and Wiltshaw 1983). This is circumstantial, though, and Melvyn Morse has argued that endorphins are not responsible, suggesting that the neurotransmitter serotonin plays a more important role. Of eleven children who had survived critical illnesses, including coma and cardiac arrest, seven reported NDEs, while twenty-nine age-matched controls, who had had similar treatments including the use of narcotics, did not report any NDEs (Morse et al. 1986).

---

From the podcast:
Dr. Steven Novella: And in fact, it’s been reported that in patients who have had naloxone, which blocks those receptors, that they have the more negative NDE experience. Why would a drug change the way someone experiences their near-death experience unless it were a brain phenomenon?

Alex Tsakiris: Great. I’d love to look at that study, too. Please send me that reference.

Dr. Steven Novella: I will send you a good overview that gives all of these references that I’m going to be talking about tonight.

---
It sounds possibly like Steven Novella is referring to this case reported by Judson and Wiltshaw in 1983, but making more of it than what it is.

Then again, perhaps Novella as a neuroscientist is aware of cases that back up his criticisms? He just doesn't seem to cite them in his post at least. That's what makes me doubtful of my own arguments. Does anyone have anything else to add regarding Novella?

Does anyone have anything else to add regarding Novella?

He never sent the information to Alex Tsakiris. Some on line commenters  are suspicious of where he actually got his MD from. He says Yale and makes a big deal out of it (fair enough) but I've seen accusations (on line) that his qualification was merely associated to Yale. 

We should give him the benefit of the doubt though, on that. However, it seems fairly clear to me although he must be regarded as an expert, he is wedded to materialism and that seems to direct his thought on NDE's.

He never sent the information to Alex Tsakiris. Some on line commenters  are suspicious of where he actually got his MD from. He says Yale and makes a big deal out of it (fair enough) but I've seen accusations (on line) that his qualification was merely associated to Yale. 

We should give him the benefit of the doubt though, on that. However, it seems fairly clear to me although he must be regarded as an expert, he is wedded to materialism and that seems to direct his thought on NDE's.

He's a neuroscientist yes. But he's not an expert on NDEs, and certainly not one for every topic he decides to discuss on his blog or podcast (which now has a Discord for some reason, but one you have to pay to join, among other privileges). I think Ninshub's points there are pretty damning evidence of this.

He never sent the information to Alex Tsakiris. Some on line commenters  are suspicious of where he actually got his MD from. He says Yale and makes a big deal out of it (fair enough) but I've seen accusations (on line) that his qualification was merely associated to Yale.

He got his MD from Georgetown, but completed his post-degree requirements at Yale and continues to work there in some capacity.

AFAIK he hasn't directly claimed to have an MD from Yale, though it does seem a lot of skeptical material talks about him as a "Yale neuroscientist".

I do think it feels somewhat deceptive as most people usually think the term refers to where your degree was obtained from, but I am not sure the extent to which Novella himself perpetuates this confusion.

But, if the [institutional] name on your degree confers authority, then Irvin Child did get an actual degree - PhD in Psychology - from Yale and was one of the people who spoke highly of Krippner's dream telepathy research.

I feel like it might be rude to start going over credentials. We're here for his arguments. Plus, I don't think Novella is an intentionally harmful or deceptive person, I just think he's got his own (maybe misinformed) opinions and is a bit of a prick sometimes.

For you Omni, now this is a good skeptical post. It's from a professional, it's got good points, you even found a rebuttal to it yourself and the whole thing doesn't have a "the entire world is crumbling around me" vibe. To the actual points though, Kastrup tore it apart pretty keenly. Brain hacking is one thing, every person and their mother agrees that your mind is deeply connected to your brain, I don't think it's amazing to point out that Descartes is wrong and there isn't a soul that'll pilot your body even if you brain isn't working.

 Like Bernardo says though, brain hacking is extremely different from changing who you are. People receive traumatic brain injuries and remain the same person, though they may sometimes seem different because they're confused, have harder times processing things and maybe have the equivalent of someone pressing the ANGRY buttons in their heads, it's actually part of the recovery process for loved ones, realising that they really are the same personality, now with some problems on top. If I hit you on the head with a rock or a neuroscientist zaps you with 4 electrodes and you suddenly have all the memories and personality of Donald Trump, then we'll have some real fuckin conversations. Until then though, it's all stuff that fits in with what we already know.

With the blocker resulting in a horrific NDE, I doubt Novella is referring to anything more recent. Like I'm sure you know from your paranoid reading, skeptics don't always use up to date citations or new info.

Also did you guys Novella plays Dungeons & Dragons? That's kinda cool actually.

Novella's entire authority comes from his credentials, as Tim notes they get touted by him or his fellow skeptics often enough.

Outside of those credentials, nothing about Novella's arguments are very interesting as this question of deep brain/mind connection has been noted even in Irreducible Mind.

If the arguments for materialism were good enough on their own why would Harris reject materialism and Shermer shift toward an agnostic position on both Consciousness and God?

Of course there still remains the question of whether death of the body means death of the mind. For that, at least as far as mainstream science acceptance goes, we'll have to wait and see.

He got his MD from Georgetown, but completed his post-degree requirements at Yale and continues to work there in some capacity.

AFAIK he hasn't directly claimed to have an MD from Yale, though it does seem a lot of skeptical material talks about him as a "Yale neuroscientist".

I do think it feels somewhat deceptive as most people usually think the term refers to where your degree was obtained from, but I am not sure the extent to which Novella himself perpetuates this confusion.

But, if the [institutional] name on your degree confers authority, then Irvin Child did get an actual degree - PhD in Psychology - from Yale and was one of the people who spoke highly of Krippner's dream telepathy research.

Thanks for clearing that up nicely, Sci! 

Yes on his own blog, there used to be a host of his 'apostles', regularly highlighting his Yale Neurology status, I guess with the attention of increasing the value of his various opinions. This guy knows what he's talking about etc. I don't remember Novella ever setting them straight as he ought to, by his own "claimed" standards.   

I note that Alexander's Harvard status (which was earned at Harvard/Duke) carried no weight whatsoever, with these guardians of reason, even though his education, qualifications and career easily trump Novella's. 

The last paragraph of your post says a lot, doesn't it. Cheers.

Just out of interest, his reviews are very poor (as a Neurologist). Of course that may be because he's being trolled. Or it could be because he spends too much time trying to debunk Psi and a myriad of other issues.

Thanks for clearing that up nicely, Sci! 

Yes on his own blog, there used to be a host of his 'apostles', regularly highlighting his Yale Neurology status, I guess with the attention of increasing the value of his various opinions. This guy knows what he's talking about etc. I don't remember Novella ever setting them straight as he ought to, by his own "claimed" standards.   

I note that Alexander's Harvard status (which was earned at Harvard/Duke) carried no weight whatsoever, with these guardians of reason, even though his education, qualifications and career easily trump Novella's. 

The last paragraph of your post says a lot, doesn't it. Cheers.

Just out of interest, his reviews are very poor (as a Neurologist). Of course that may be because he's being trolled. Or it could be because he spends too much time trying to debunk Psi and a myriad of other issues.

What do you mean by that tim? Where did you get that from? I didn't know you could leave reviews for medical practitioners?

He does seem to have a lot of spare time on his hands, given how he is has a blog, a podcast and a YouTube channel with lengthy livestreams.