How important is it to convince the scientific community that psi exists?

Are you saying that if PK is false then all the rest of it is irrelevant too ?

No, I didn't say anything like that.

What we were talking about was the claim by Typoz that sceptics would refuse to accept a demonstration of macro-psychokinesis under controlled conditions, of the kind that berkelon suggested.

Typoz said > What makes you think such a demonstration would shut anyone up "once and for all"? Don't you think such a person would come under immense personal scrutiny, every aspect of their life would be laid before the public gaze. And they would be asked to perform again and again.... and after all that, it would just go into the records as one more mystery to add to the endless list of mysteries. And sceptics would continue to declare, "there is no evidence whatsoever", just as they've always done.

Typoz didn't mention controlled conditions ! You're assuming that he meant that...which he probably did but that begs the question...what are the controlled conditions ?? Who decides that ? The conditions set by psi researchers are higher than those for other experiments and yet the results are always waved away and ever tighter controls are asked for because sceptics do not want it. (to be true) 

So Typoz is absolutely correct in my opinion.

Typoz didn't mention controlled conditions ! You're assuming that he meant that...

No, I'm not. As I've just explained, Typoz was referring to what berkelon had suggested - "public displays of macro pk under controlled conditions":
http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-56...l#pid10835

Typoz said > What makes you think such a demonstration would shut anyone up "once and for all"? Don't you think such a person would come under immense personal scrutiny, every aspect of their life would be laid before the public gaze. And they would be asked to perform again and again.... and after all that, it would just go into the records as one more mystery to add to the endless list of mysteries. And sceptics would continue to declare, "there is no evidence whatsoever", just as they've always done.

Typoz didn't mention controlled conditions ! You're assuming that he meant that...which he probably did but that begs the question...what are the controlled conditions ?? Who decides that ? The conditions set by psi researchers are higher than those for other experiments and yet the results are always waved away and ever tighter controls are asked for because sceptics do not want it. (to be true) 

So Typoz is absolutely correct in my opinion.

Thanks Tim.

No, I didn't say anything like that.

You said >

But disbelieving the statement of a witness about a spontaneous event is very different from what we're talking about here - a demonstration of macro-psychokinesis under controlled conditions. If someone could do that at will, and repeat it on request, how could it be disbelieved?

Would a demonstration of remote viewing under controlled conditions not prove psi ? Would it be believed ?

Of course a demonstration of PK could be disbelieved even repeated demonstrations. The witnesses could simply cite trickery in the same way they did in the Scole Hole.(naturally, I doubt if you would take Scole seriously but you get the point.

No, I'm not. As I've just explained, Typoz was referring to what berkelon had suggested - "public displays of macro pk under controlled conditions":
http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-56...l#pid10835

He (Typoz) didn't say controlled conditions specifically though he probably meant it. I've given you his quote above, why are you arguing ?

He (Typoz) didn't say controlled conditions specifically though he probably meant it. I've given you his quote above, why are you arguing ?

No, Typoz didn't say it, but Berkelon said it in the post Typoz was replying to.

No, Typoz didn't say it, but Berkelon said it in the post Typoz was replying to.

Indeed he did, Chris but we have to be precise don't we. Sceptics demand it .......when it suits them.

I’m someone who trains daily to achieve a specific level of magic which is based in PK and I have every intention of eventually doing public demonstrations but even I would not go out there gleefully. Dreamsoap and I talk about what we’re going to do when we finally get magic to work quite a lot and it’s not exactly all sunshine and rainbows.

We both know that skeptics will do anything not to believe things they don’t like. But we’re not worried about them. The believers are far more scary.

First and foremost, relgious people. They’re pretty much universally retarded and our pick for the “who’s probably going to try murdering us first” lottery. Cuz you know that some dumbass Muslim’s going to think we’re Djinn or some fucknut Christian’s going to think we’re the Anti-christ and they’re going to be good moral slaves/servants of their god and try to kill us. And could you imagine what the media fallout would be if we successfully defended ourselves with magic?

Secondly is the governent, specifically intelligence agencies. I mean, they’ve already demonstrated an interest in such things and militaries are always looking for an edge. So my guess is it’s quite likely we’d somehow be framed for something, imprisoned, and “dissapeared” for further study. If you think that’s unlikely then you might want to look at the well documented cases of outright fraud in the justice system. A good smack in the face undeniable case is the Balloon Boy “hoax” from, what, 2009? Go look up a guy called the Internet Historian on youtube and look at his video on that and Richard Heene’s followup with all the direct evidence. Once again could you imagine the media fallout if we were forced into a position where we had to defend ourselves from police with magic and succeeded?

Magic is probably the greatest possible threat to the current socio-economic paradigm which relies on a small group of people having direct control over every facet of the lives of everyone else. Such societal control requires Technocracy. It requires that power exists outside of the person so that the person can be controlled by controlling their access to power. Anything that threatens that control gets stamped out with extreme prejudice. History is full of such examples, all of them justified by the ruling class of the time using their own selectively enforced laws. Look at the smear campaign and outright proven illegal shit that the american government did to Ross Ulbritch. Go look at the proven false flags such as the 2007 SPP protest in Quebec where a local cop dressed up as a civilian and tried to throw a rock at the cops to try provoking them into violently cracking down on the protesters because “oh look they’re getting violent”. Go look at the recently released JFK files and how there were ideas floated about creating false flag terror ops in Miami to make the Cuban government look bad. Look at Operation Northwoods. Hell look at Operation Mockingbird.

Now lets back up a bit, so you know how there’s this gun debate happening in america? Yeah, now imagine what the “People who can shoot lighting from their hands” debate would look like? Magic takes away every traditionally employed ability for a person to be controlled by an outside entity. Like, just one of the things I’m working on the ability to create solid “matter” out of energy, matter that persists even after I let go of it. It’s something that a skilled practicioner could use to literally build themselves a house. It’s also something a skilled practicioner could use to build themselves a knife, or a gun, or whatever. No need for money, no need for permits or licences, just a bunch of practice and the ability to feed themselves until that too becomes something that can be automated with magic. How kindly do you think people who believe they are in positions of authority, who believe they run society and everyone has to do what they fucking say or get shot, are going to look on that?

People who think that’s its just this simple little thing where clearly anyone who had such abilities would just go out and freely demonstrate them are phenomenally naive about what type of world they’d be entering by doing so. And I haven’t even touched on the societal chaos that would unfold from such a thing. I haven’t even gotten to the tensions that would inevitably rise between those with magic and those without it. You might think "Oh but I thought you said its something anyone can train what tensions could there be?" I'll let the reader think on that one for a bit to see if they can figure it out.