Distressing NDE's paper (finds higher proportion of suicide survivors)

Laureys te

Laureys team at the University of Liège, Belgium have published a new paper looking at Near Death Experiences A systematic analysis of distressing near-death experience accounts

There are some interesting bit's a pieces in the paper... They found Distressing NDE's represented 14% of their NDE sample group (17 out of 123). They also found a higher proportion of suicide survivors within the distressing NDE sub-group, compared to the non-distressing NDE sub-group. Which is pretty interesting.


https://thinkingdeeper.files.wordpress.c...h_2019.pdf

The paper is interesting, yet the authors at the end refer to Blackmore's idea of expectation for their conclusion. It doesn't really look solid, as there is no reason why people experiencing sudden death experiences would have pleasant NDEs, or even negative ones, as they never had time to formulate an idea of what was going to happen to them.

the same is true with atheists having any kind of NDE, there is no reason for them to have a strong expectancy for the event. Also, while it seems true that suicide attempts result a bit more often in negative NDEs, it's still very far from being the majority of cases. Basically, if expectancy or mood was the force driving the NDE, we'd expect nearly all suicide attempts to result in negative NDEs (after all, who commits suicide without some form of negative mood) but this is not the case.

It sounds like the authors, being unable to identify what is causing the NDE first place, try to use negative NDEs to make them fit into pure materialsm. But they do not have a clue about why, or how, the event is happing, it's all speculation and on weak basis I would say.

This area is a minefield. Doesn't matter how you try to approach it, whatever you say you're going to upset somebody.
Just taking a very simplistic approach, assuming there is a continuity of existence after physical death, do people who commit suicide go to "hell" or see "hell" ? (whatever hell is--or as it is  described)

I would say definitely not (leaving aside relevant data where suicides are seen again in "heaven"). Do people who perpetrate the most horrendous acts on others and then commit suicide, go to "hell" or see "hell" ? I would say probably yes (but I don't want to be judgemental, there's nothing worse)  

One of the persons I spoke to, who had an NDE during cardiac arrest, told me there were definitely other places than "heaven" and he'd seen somebody in one of these places who he knew to be something of a dodgy character (he didn't wish to elaborate). He did say that this man knew why he was where he was and that the man knew he deserved it (naturally ) He wasn't being tortured with fire, there was no "devil" shoving a pitchfork up his rear end, it was just an unhappy place. No doubt said man would be eventually allowed out ? but then again time doesn't exist over there (so we're told) so how does that work ?

I don't know and that's why I think it's probably a waste of energy speculating. I certainly don't think admission to "heaven" has got anything to do with carrying out a minimum number of religious practices.

Right, how many people have I offended with that patronising post ?

This area is a minefield. Doesn't matter how you try to approach it, whatever you say you're going to upset somebody.
Just taking a very simplistic approach, assuming there is a continuity of existence after physical death, do people who commit suicide go to "hell" or see "hell" ? (whatever hell is--or as it is  described)

I would say definitely not (leaving aside relevant data where suicides are seen again in "heaven"). Do people who perpetrate the most horrendous acts on others and then commit suicide, go to "hell" or see "hell" ? I would say probably yes (but I don't want to be judgemental, there's nothing worse)  

One of the persons I spoke to, who had an NDE during cardiac arrest, told me there were definitely other places than "heaven" and he'd seen somebody in one of these places who he knew to be something of a dodgy character (he didn't wish to elaborate). He did say that this man knew why he was where he was and that the man knew he deserved it (naturally ) He wasn't being tortured with fire, there was no "devil" shoving a pitchfork up his rear end, it was just an unhappy place. No doubt said man would be eventually allowed out ? but then again time doesn't exist over there (so we're told) so how does that work ?

I don't know and that's why I think it's probably a waste of energy speculating. I certainly don't think admission to "heaven" has got anything to do with carrying out a minimum number of religious practices.

Right, how many people have I offended with that patronising post ?

I find your post well thought Tim. If we want to give survival of consciousness a chance and think of other "realms" where it can exist then maybe there isn't only "heaven", but a wide range of places.

Some may be pretty horrible. Why people end in these places during an NDE? Heck, I don't have a clue. But id doesn't seem to happen that much on expectancy, as many suicide attempts end in positive NDEs, atheists too find positive NDEs (or even negative ones, they still don't have an expectancy) and sudden events like traumatic accidents, falls, unexpected CA don't allow room to formulate some expectancy about your demise (this idea was mentioned by Sam Parnia too, stating that CA is often rapid, messy and you can't really think much during the onset).

I find your post well thought Tim. If we want to give survival of consciousness a chance and think of other "realms" where it can exist then maybe there isn't only "heaven", but a wide range of places.

Some may be pretty horrible. Why people end in these places during an NDE? Heck, I don't have a clue. But id doesn't seem to happen that much on expectancy, as many suicide attempts end in positive NDEs, atheists too find positive NDEs (or even negative ones, they still don't have an expectancy) and sudden events like traumatic accidents, falls, unexpected CA don't allow room to formulate some expectancy about your demise (this idea was mentioned by Sam Parnia too, stating that CA is often rapid, messy and you can't really think much during the onset).

Thanks, Raf. One man I spoke to was dead for 4 minutes. He was just ordinary, not religious, bit grumpy, even a bit judgemental and as "tight as two coats of  paint" (he said) but he had a humdinger of an experience. I tried to get an understanding of this "heaven" (I'm curious, I admit) he said he'd been to, but I was not much wiser after hours of to and fro.
 
Anyone who's listened to them recounting their experiences will know that using words is inadequate because they're describing something that there are no words for.

I don’t tend to pay much attention to authors opinions in areas of research where we have a poor understanding. That said, i’m Pretty much in agreement with their suggestion that the Contextual aspects of the experience influence the experience itself, this includes the environment and the persons past experiences.

Also, as regards ‘expectancy’, I think that it’s reasonable to suggest that in many cultures, the suicide may have an expectancy about the known and unknown consequences of taking their own life, which may have a negative sign for them. This could be for reasons such as social stigma, effect on loved ones, uncertainty of outcome, fear about what to expect etc., in the run up to taking their own life. As we know past thoughts influence present thoughts, it seems reasonable to suggest that a persons mindset before and during taking their life, might have an effect on their NDE.

That said, my own opinion is that as well as considering the person in isolation, we should also consider the environment within which the person is embedded, as well as other third parties who are within that environment. Brains are not shielded or isolated, and stochastic systems - particularly compatible systems - can resonate. Teasing out far weaker signals from noise, in a way that is not really very well understood.

I don't know if this is what you were getting at, but - if someone goes to a party, they'll take in the same basic objective information as anyone else - room size, crowd size, noises, etc. If they have the expectation that everything about that party is conducive to a good time, that will affect their experience of the party, and their recall of it.  If they hate crowds and loud noises, then that will affect their experience and recall the other way. Based on that, I would imagine expectations about death play into the experience and recall of NDEs, even supposing non-local consciousness/an afterlife.