Consciousness during CPR

well I think this poster basically makes the same connection between cpr and consciousness during cpr  as was made in the related article in the OP. 

I agree. I think the final thing we are looking for from Parnia, at this point, is to match the EEG and rSO2 findings to the qualitative experiences findings, to see whether there is a connection between cerebral activity and reported experiences in individuals.

Linda

There's something I hadn't picked up on...

All the patients in the study had been clinically dead. Including the 282 who didn't report an NDE (at the time).

62 patients (18%) reported some memory of their time unconscious (clinically dead). This should not happen at all, if consciousness is produced by the brain. And if there was a physiological cause for NDE's then surely many more of them, if not all of them should have had an NDE ?

A few patients who had initially been given NDE status, had been given it wrongly. They only had the feeling they were dying (they were actually dying) In addition, a few patients who had initially said they didn't have an NDE, later admitted that they did , but they hadn't wanted to admit it at the time (for whatever reason).

12% of the patients had NDE's (based on the Greyson scale), moderate, deep and very deep. That's quite enough real NDE's, percentage wise. Enough data there for proponent and sceptic, alike. 

Linda is doing what she always does. Trying to muddy the waters and sew doubt in her uniquely mischievous manner.

3. Parnia hasn't told us if the alpha waves overlap the reported NDE's. You are assuming they do. Why ?

3. The study hasn't been completed. Let the experts analyse it before drawing conclusions.

I believe the alpha waves will eventually be shown to be correlated with having a Near Death experience. There seems to be equivalence between the frequency of alpha waves measured and the frequency of NDEs as discussed in parallel topic (less than 5%). But yes of course we will have to wait for the study to complete before drawing the final conclusions. If the connection I’m making here turns out to be invalid it’s an interesting result in itself even if nobody identifys the hidden target or have any veridical perception.

Well I haven't actually looked at Van Lommel's paper again... I just cut and pasted part of a post I made on Penny's blog back in 2013...

...but I wasn't aware that Van Lommel didn't use the Greyson NDE scale, but used Ring's Weighted Core Experience Index instead, and according to Linda - if I've got this right - he didn't use any cut off score to decide whether or not a patient had a near death experience. So assuming that I've understood that correctly, and with both studies being otherwise equal, Van Lommel should always find a higher percentage of patients who experienced NDE's, than AWARE I & II will, as AWARE does use a cut-off score combined with the Greyson Scale. (Obviously both studies are not equal, as I've pointed out, AWARE appears to have much greater difficulty enrolling and interviewing patients as quickly).

So in this case, I'm not really sure what you're objecting about?

What I'm objecting to is Linda's never ending shenanigans ! She's trying to rubbish Van Lommel's study (again) which was conducted to the highest standard possible ! Even Woerlee admitted that and praised it, although of course he disagreed with Van Lommel's conclusions.

They used the weighted core experience and categorised the data accordingly. If either of you want to suggest that some of the moderately deep NDE's, the 5% (18 persons) with a score of 6-9 might not be actual valid NDE's...then simply split that in half =2.5% = 9 persons.

That still leaves us with 9.5% (32 persons) who definitely !! had an NDE...with 23 persons having at least a deep NDE.

Deal with that data if you want to be ultra critical and selective (for whatever reason) but it doesn't change anything about Van Lommel's study.

I believe the alpha waves will eventually be shown to be correlated with having a Near Death experience. There seems to be equivalence between the frequency of alpha waves measured and the frequency of NDEs as discussed in parallel topic (less than 5%). But yes of course we will have to wait for the study to complete before drawing the final conclusions. If the connection I’m making here turns out to be invalid it’s an interesting result in itself even if nobody identifys the hidden target or have any veridical perception.

Sbu said > "I believe the alpha waves will eventually be shown to be correlated with having a Near Death experience."

Okay, that's your belief and you are entitled to it. You yourself had alpha waves this morning just when you woke up. Did you have an NDE ?

Sbu said >"But yes of course we will have to wait for the study to complete before drawing the final conclusions"

Agreed.

Sbu said >"If the connection I’m making here turns out to be invalid it’s an interesting result in itself even if nobody identifys the hidden target or have any veridical perception.

I disagree. We're talking here about prolonged CPR sometimes around 45 minutes + worth. They didn't used to do it to that extent. And during that extensive period of time it's not surprising that with the use of the most advanced drugs, breaking all their ribs and oxygenating them (as best they can to the right degree) some brainwaves might appear in a couple of patients. 

It still doesn't explain how the patients can see what is going on around the room and certainly not out in the corridor.

I suggest you're reading something into my posts that isn't actually meant to be there.

Sbu was questioning why AWARE I found a much lower percentage of patients with NDE's than Van Lommel's study, I think suggesting that the difference might mean that Van Lommels study may have been in some way deficient.

But in fact there are at least two good logical reasons why Van Lommel's study shows a higher percentage of NDE's, firstly Van Lommel apparently - according to Linda - used different criteria to classify NDE'ers compared with AWARE I, which meant his sub-set of NDE'ers would be larger than AWARE I. Secondly, AWARE I was incredibly slow in enrolling and interviewing patients, IIRC 18 months. Van Lommel's study seemed to show that many of his NDE'ers were already dead at 30 days, suggesting that the lengthy delay in enrolling/interviewing patients in AWARE I would naturally result in far fewer NDE's being recorded compared to Van Lommel's study, because many of AWARE I's potential NDE patients had already died before they could be enrolled/interviewed, and would not therefore be included in their study.

So as you say, these explanations make no real impact on the validity of either study, but they probably account for their different percentages of NDE'ers that Sbu expressed some concern about.

If you take a ruler calibrated in inches to measure a carrot and then measure it with a ruler calibrated in centimetres, the carrot still remains a carrot. (not a perfect analogy, of course) Ring, Sabom, Margot Grey, Greyson all had slightly different ideas about to most efficiently classify the NDE data. It doesn't change the remarkable nature of the experience.

And even if someone reports only one memory from the time they were dead, simply that of knowing that they have died... isn't that still a very significant memory/experience ? I mean that's not supposed to happen, is it  ?

https://profezie3m.altervista.org/archiv...et_NDE.htm

I just wish Linda would shut the fuck up/ And that's swearing.