Psience Quest

(2017-10-16, 12:49 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]Yes GA. What I mean is when I had recovered, I recall all the memories leading up to it (as far as I can rely on any memories). Right up to the anaesthetist talking to me. Am I answering the right question?

I'm talking about the memories between 'going under' and 'coming to', I'm quite certain that's what Hammeroff means also. It is the only time in my life where my impression is that time just disappears.

(2017-10-16, 01:07 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]I'm talking about the memories between 'going under' and 'coming to', I'm quite certain that's what Hammeroff means also. It is the only time in my life where my impression is that time just disappears.

Ah no I am with you. I have zero recollection of anything at all while I was under. This isn't unusual in itself for me as I hardly ever remember dreams, but the experience was not like sleeping which for me, isn't a continuous process, I move, I wake a bit then doze off again etc. At least the beginning wasn't wasn't like sleep. The waking up felt like normal waking up, except it was a quicker process than is usual for me.

(2017-10-16, 01:47 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]Ah no I am with you. I have zero recollection of anything at all while I was under. This isn't unusual in itself for me as I hardly ever remember dreams, but the experience was not like sleeping which for me, isn't a continuous process, I move, I wake a bit then doze off again etc. At least the beginning wasn't wasn't like sleep. The waking up felt like normal waking up, except it was a quicker process than is usual for me.

LOL you must be fun in the morning! 

(2017-10-16, 02:32 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]LOL you must be fun in the morning! 

Man I’m dreadful. I need total silence. Unfortunately my better half is noisy as hell.

I thought it would be interesting to look a little at what light clinical research might cast on these issues.

"Throughout the night, the sleeping brain cycles through three stages of non-REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, alternating with REM sleep, which is when most dreaming occurs. Each of these has a distinctive EEG pattern. None of those resembles the EEG of a brain under general anesthesia, however. In fact, general anesthesia EEG patterns are most similar to those of a comatose brain. As Brown points out, general anesthesia is essentially a “reversible coma.”" (http://news.mit.edu/2010/anesthesia-brown-0103)

Research has apparently shown that general anesthetic dreaming occurs just before emerging from the anesthesia, not during it. "Anesthetic-related dreaming seems to occur just before awakening and is associated with a rapid eye movement-like electroencephalographic pattern." (the researchers call it "covert REM") (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19672164)

"Dreaming was reported on emergence by 27% of propofol patients and 28% of desflurane patients. Patients reported simple dreams about family, friends, work, and recreation. No patients reported awareness during anesthesia, and there were no dreams that were suggestive of intraoperative memory formation." This was a study with 300 patients. (http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...id=1923911)

It looks as if during both the comatose condition and the general anesthesia induced quasi-comatose condition the brain is profoundly depressed in activity and there is no actual dreaming taking place, at least any indicated by EEG.

Of course all the research is done from the mind=brain materialist standpoint, and has worked out an elaborate set of hypotheses and theories along those lines. But from an interactive dualist standpoint I would interpret this to imply that maybe during deep general anesthesia the spirit is locked in to the physical brain and experiences nothing, certainly not the passage of time or dreams. Because the neurological machine it is locked into is functioning only at a very low level. As the person comes out of anesthesia the spirit progressively becomes no longer suppressed by the brain and starts to be aware. Sometimes dreaming occurs during this transient period of awakening. In a certain percentage of these occurrences the patient recalls the dreams.

I wonder if there are any mediumistic communications or channelings that address this. 

Studies showing evident recall of music or other things during general anesthesia seem to be due to the rare instances of anesthesia awareness occurring when the anesthesia is not deep enough, which often cause a lot of psychological problems.

We don't know whether the occasional recall of dreams during emergence from anesthesia is due to occasional formation of memories, or to occasional recall of memories that are always formed. It may be a clue that research indicates that it happens when the awakening process is prolonged somewhat.

The dreaming process looks like it is built in to the neurological design of the mammalian brain and fundamentally isn't a function of the spirit.

(2017-10-15, 07:24 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]I quote Hammeroff:

"Generally one does not dream under anaesthesia, you're just gone for the duration of the anaesthetic"

It at around 50mins of Science of the Soul.

There is a body of literature related to dreams under anesthesia. It's also available for public scrutiny. 

I'm not sure why you are ignoring that, or why you have been asking the same things here (and Skeptiko before that) and at Bernardo's forum at the same time.

(2017-10-16, 09:18 PM)E. Flowers Wrote: [ -> ]There is a body of literature related to dreams under anesthesia. It's also available for public scrutiny. 

I'm not sure why you are ignoring that, or why you have been asking the same things here (and Skeptiko before that) and at Bernardo's forum at the same time.

Well, Hammeroff disagrees. So do the papers that nbtruthman has just posted!

Maybe I'm ignoring that because you haven't pointed me to where it might be. Maybe in your head?

What is it to do with you or anyone else where and when as well as why I've been posting? It's not as if the answer to the question has been answered to anyone's satisfaction, here or anywhere else, is it?

If we are to compare anaesthesia with the state of coma, that broadens the scope. What happens during coma, is consciousness tied to the physical or free to roam? I don't have any references to hand, but I seem to recall that both may occur. If brain activity is at a low level, that doesn't need to imply nothing is happening with consciousness, it may simply be that the consciousness is 'elsewhere'.

(2017-10-16, 10:11 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]It's not as if the answer to the question has been answered to anyone's satisfaction, here or anywhere else, is it?

Hi Steve!

I'm going to try again, because I think I have a satisfactory answer, even if (perhaps) it is one that you might not be willing to accept.

I think interactionist dualism is both a satisfactory as well as the best explanation for all of the sorts of phenomena and evidence that we consider on this forum, including that which you raise (anaesthesia).

I suggest that, generally, mind and brain are tightly-coupled, but that occasionally the mind (or a non-physical entity even more deeply coupled with the mind) is decoupled from the brain in what is commonly referred to as an "out-of-body" or "visionary" experience. Clearly, there must be certain "freeing" conditions under which this occurs - conditions such as extreme trauma or being near death - and I would suggest that in the absence of such conditions, the tight coupling between the dual aspects of brain and mind severely constrains the subjective experiences of the mind, as a sort of "prisoner" of the brain.

This tight coupling in the absence of any conditions which might free the mind from the brain means that when the brain is "powered down" by anaesthetics, the mind tightly coupled to the brain, not able to free itself, is likewise "powered down".

OK, but why do I think that this dualistic "coupling" theory makes sense in the first place?

Well, consider learning how to walk. This is essentially an "algorithmic" activity which robots have already been programmed to duplicate, including in the context of very, very tricky terrain. It seems to me to be basically a matter of training a neural network, which could be either biological or computational. This is very plausibly and very likely something that the brain handles on behalf of the mind which it is hosting - which is not to say that the mind could not handle it on its own if it had to! But then, consider the rare gifts that are sometimes bestowed upon those who have had a near-death experience or the like - gifts such as suddenly being able to play the piano like a virtuoso. Clearly, these don't originate in the brain, because there is no time or opportunity to learn them computationally - they are sudden and unexpected. On the other hand, they very clearly mediate via the brain - thus entailing a mind-brain dualism.

I think then that there is evidence both for learning via the brain as well as inspiration by the mind to which it is attached, implying that these two entities are tightly coupled (why, I don't know), and I would encourage you to think about what I wrote above with respect to the idea that - unless it encounters conditions which free it - the mind is generally so tightly coupled with the brain that when the brain powers down (e.g.via anaesthetics), so does the mind with which it is coupled.

P.S. This is a worst-case scenario! As others have pointed out, it is totally possible that whilst the brain is anaesthetised, the mind dreams or otherwise remains conscious, and it is simply the case that we don't recall the dreams or other conscious experiences when we emerge from anaesthesia.

I appreciate your attempt at solving this puzzle.

However....

It is just one more idea among many that might be considered. When no one in the field of neuroscience seems to properly understands things, I just prefer to stay ignorant until eventually scientists, or in this case it's possibly someone else, find a theory that everyone accepts. 

As I said, I just don't know.

My interest in the topic comes from my personal experience from having had a few operations under general anaesthetic. My guess is that as long as we/God/whoever is running the show does not feel that the body's in danger of dying, it is quite content with having us 'lose consciousness' for a bit. Without dreaming.  The question of coming out of normal sensual awareness into a different sort, is one for religious/spiritual  types to ponder. Scientists have unfortunately exempt themselves from such  discussions.