(2017-10-22, 04:05 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Well then, I want an apology from you!
Sorry Steve, it just seemed your account had been either hacked or duplicated. And to be perfectly honest I'm still not convinced it hasn't.
I mean look above, a simple Google search puts this "no dreams when you're under" stuff to bed.
(2017-10-22, 04:11 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Steve, it just seemed your account had been either hacked or duplicated. And to be perfectly honest I'm still not convinced it hasn't.
I mean look above, a simple Google search puts this "no dreams when you're under" stuff to bed.
No, it does not! There is evidence of dreaming in the recovery stage, but as both Hamerrhof and the papers that Nbtruthman has posted, say that there isn't any during anaesthetic.
"I thought it would be interesting to look a little at what light clinical research might cast on these issues.
"Throughout the night, the sleeping brain cycles through three stages of non-REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, alternating with REM sleep, which is when most dreaming occurs. Each of these has a distinctive EEG pattern. None of those resembles the EEG of a brain under general anesthesia, however. In fact, general anesthesia EEG patterns are most similar to those of a comatose brain. As Brown points out, general anesthesia is essentially a “reversible coma.”" (http://news.mit.edu/2010/anesthesia-brown-0103)
Research has apparently shown that general anesthetic dreaming occurs just before emerging from the anesthesia, not during it. "Anesthetic-related dreaming seems to occur just before awakening and is associated with a rapid eye movement-like electroencephalographic pattern." (the researchers call it "covert REM") (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19672164)
"Dreaming was reported on emergence by 27% of propofol patients and 28% of desflurane patients. Patients reported simple dreams about family, friends, work, and recreation. No patients reported awareness during anesthesia, and there were no dreams that were suggestive of intraoperative memory formation." This was a study with 300 patients. (http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...id=1923911)"
The reason I asked on Bernardo's forum, as I've stated before, is that I thought he might have discussed it in his books. The answers I received there, were just as waffly as those here.
The feeling I get, is that this is one of those areas where nobody really knows. If Bernardo doesn't have an answer, then I strongly suspect google won't either!
It was me, Steve Mc Kinnell, that questioned the Brain being influenced by chemicals in my original post.It doesn't mean that I have suddenly become a materialist, just that it is strange. And it is!
You let yourself down.
(2017-10-22, 04:11 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry Steve, it just seemed your account had been either hacked or duplicated. And to be perfectly honest I'm still not convinced it hasn't.
This is bullshit. Put up or shut up!
Where are the offending posts?
(2017-10-22, 04:47 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]This is bullshit. Put up or shut up!
Where are the offending posts?
You mean telling E. Flowers to STFU because he was pointing out that, yes, there is a record of dreaming while under anesthetics, doesn't count as offending to you? Lol. Again, that was something easily discovered with a Google search in a matter of seconds.
I also question this desperation to take grand offense, to be so angry you feel curse words are necessary.
Beyond that posting this stubborn insistence that you've found the "skeptical" gotcha in regards to comas supposedly turning off consciousness in multiple forums is something we've seen from trolls before.
It fits a pattern, but really I'm happy to let the matter drop.
(2017-10-22, 04:40 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]No, it does not! There is evidence of dreaming in the recovery stage, but as both Hamerrhof and the papers that Nbtruthman has posted, say that there isn't any during anaesthetic.
"I thought it would be interesting to look a little at what light clinical research might cast on these issues.
"Throughout the night, the sleeping brain cycles through three stages of non-REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, alternating with REM sleep, which is when most dreaming occurs. Each of these has a distinctive EEG pattern. None of those resembles the EEG of a brain under general anesthesia, however. In fact, general anesthesia EEG patterns are most similar to those of a comatose brain. As Brown points out, general anesthesia is essentially a “reversible coma.”" (http://news.mit.edu/2010/anesthesia-brown-0103)
Research has apparently shown that general anesthetic dreaming occurs just before emerging from the anesthesia, not during it. "Anesthetic-related dreaming seems to occur just before awakening and is associated with a rapid eye movement-like electroencephalographic pattern." (the researchers call it "covert REM") (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19672164)
"Dreaming was reported on emergence by 27% of propofol patients and 28% of desflurane patients. Patients reported simple dreams about family, friends, work, and recreation. No patients reported awareness during anesthesia, and there were no dreams that were suggestive of intraoperative memory formation." This was a study with 300 patients. (http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...id=1923911)"
The reason I asked on Bernardo's forum, as I've stated before, is that I thought he might have discussed it in his books. The answers I received there, were just as waffly as those here.
The feeling I get, is that this is one of those areas where nobody really knows. If Bernardo doesn't have an answer, then I strongly suspect google won't either!
It was me, Steve Mc Kinnell, that questioned the Brain being influenced by chemicals in my original post.It doesn't mean that I have suddenly become a materialist, just that it is strange. And it is!
You let yourself down.
"You let yourself down" Lol, such dramatics.
In any case here's an article based on the study you mention:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dream...0420070220
Quote:The similarities between the patients’ dreams while under anesthesia and during natural sleep suggest that the dreams during anesthesia occur during the early recovery period when patients are still lightly sedated, but are in a definite sleep state, Leslie’s team concludes.
That's hardly a slam dunk against dreaming while under, to me it's quite spurious and biased.
(2017-10-11, 12:08 PM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]I read it. What's odd is none of "you" recognize this is applicable to yourselves. Everytime someone argues "you" are mistaken it's rare to hear agreement. Instead I hear a chorus of we aren't wrong because of these reasons... . So when pointing the finger of closed mindeness ask "yourselves" am I just as culpable of that charge as my opponent? Honestly I think "you" are more closed minded than you'll ever admit. And if I am wrong I extend an open invitation for anyone to categorically say why not.
Didn't you run off to JREF and beg people to help argue against Maanelli who you called a "woo monger of the worst kind"? And even they laughed at your desperate need to evangelize materialism?
And IIRC the post that got you banned from Skeptiko was insisting proponents didn't really confront death in their persona lives, hinting they didn't have the supposed courage you posses?
As such, regarding your latest attempt in shaming proponents, you might want to start with the Man in the Mirror...
(2017-10-22, 05:07 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]You mean telling E. Flowers to STFU because he was pointing out that, yes, there is a record of dreaming while under anesthetics, doesn't count as offending to you? Lol. Again, that was something easily discovered with a Google search in a matter of seconds.
I also question this desperation to take grand offense, to be so angry you feel curse words are necessary.
Beyond that posting this stubborn insistence that you've found the "skeptical" gotcha in regards to comas supposedly turning off consciousness in multiple forums is something we've seen from trolls before.
It fits a pattern, but really I'm happy to let the matter drop.
I wasn't telling E Flowers to STFU, my exact words were Oh Fuck Right Off!
My problem was nothing at all to do with 'dreaming under anaesthetics', how did you come to that conclusion? It was his previous constant questioning of members, accusing them of 'trolling', now I was the perceived troll!
Yes, you're damn right I felt 'curse words' necessary. Question away, but don't forget to include yourself. Now your joining E Flowers with your accusations.
I ask again: Where are the 'multiple' offending posts, in which forums?
(2017-10-22, 04:03 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, to easily cut this "skeptical" foray at the legs, dreaming during anesthesia:
https://vanwinkles.com/what-we-know-abou...-the-knife
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17900017
From the second reference in the first linked article (
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dreami...0420070220):
"The similarities between the patients’ dreams while under anesthesia and during natural sleep suggest that the dreams during anesthesia occur during the early recovery period when patients are still lightly sedated, but are in a definite sleep state, Leslie’s team concludes.
These findings, the researchers conclude, should reassure patients who may think dreaming during surgery is a sign of inadequate anesthesia."
From the paper referenced in the second link:
"Most dreaming however, occurs in younger, fitter patients, who have high home dream recall, who receive propofol-based anaesthesia and who emerge rapidly from anaesthesia. Their dreams are usually short and pleasant, are related to work, family and recreation, are not related to inadequate anaesthesia and probably occur during recovery."
(2017-10-22, 05:32 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't telling E Flowers to STFU, my exact words were Oh Fuck Right Off!
My problem was nothing at all to do with 'dreaming under anaesthetics', how did you come to that conclusion? It was his previous constant questioning of members, accusing them of 'trolling', now I was the perceived troll!
Yes, you're damn right I felt 'curse words' necessary. Question away, but don't forget to include yourself. Now your joining E Flowers with your accusations.
I ask again: Where are the 'multiple' offending posts, in which forums?
Steve, I've already mentioned my reasoning regarding the posts - I'm not going to link to every potential post here and on Metaphysical Speculations.
I apologize if I misread your response to E. Flowers but really I don't see why curse words are necessary? It seems to me he only accused you of being a troll imitating the original Steve because you seemed to be repeatedly ignoring what he was saying, that there is a body of research regarding dreaming while under**.
This isn't the first time someone comes up with what reads like a materialist gotcha and Steve001 jumps on board with wild accusations about how all proponents are close minded and unwilling to believe in the materialist faith he professes. It fits a historical pattern which is why I thought he either hacked or duplicated your account - seems to me E. Flowers was wondering the same thing?
Really this seems much ado about nothing IMO?
**In fact:
https://bmcanesthesiol.biomedcentral.com...016-0214-1
Quote:The results of the present study suggest that dreams during anesthesia are influenced by suggestions administered immediately preceding anesthesia.
(2017-10-22, 05:56 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]From one of the two papers referenced in the first link:
"The similarities between the patients’ dreams while under anesthesia and during natural sleep suggest that the dreams during anesthesia occur during the early recovery period when patients are still lightly sedated, but are in a definite sleep state, Leslie’s team concludes.
These findings, the researchers conclude, should reassure patients who may think dreaming during surgery is a sign of inadequate anesthesia."
This reference is the Leslie study quoted earlier ("Dreaming was reported on emergence by 27% of propofol patients and 28% of desflurane patients. Patients reported simple dreams about family, friends, work, and recreation. No patients reported awareness during anesthesia, and there were no dreams that were suggestive of intraoperative memory formation." This was a study with 300 patients. (http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/art...id=1923911)")
From the paper referenced in the second link:
"Most dreaming however, occurs in younger, fitter patients, who have high home dream recall, who receive propofol-based anaesthesia and who emerge rapidly from anaesthesia. Their dreams are usually short and pleasant, are related to work, family and recreation, are not related to inadequate anaesthesia and probably occur during recovery."
I mentioned in this in an earlier post but it seems to me trying to time-stamp the occurrence of dreams by mere similarities is rather biased?
Also going beyond dreaming and getting into subjective feels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17900016
Quote:Do patients form memories of intra-operative events when they are adequately anaesthetized? Studies of memory priming during anaesthesia with depth or awareness monitoring provide some evidence that they do, although only the most basic form of memory function, perceptual priming, persists when patients are unconscious. The probability of memory encoding increases as depth of anaesthesia decreases. There is a theoretical possibility that patients can be adversely affected, through memory priming, by comments made in the operating theatre, and some evidence that positive intra-operative suggestions can benefit patients.