(2024-04-28, 04:24 PM)David001 Wrote: [ -> ]Please rewind to the start of the video, and watch the start, where he dismissed Rene Descartes concept of Dualism. This is vital. Descartes was no fool, and science has discovered nothing since his time that justifies Noble's dismissal of Descartes.
This is the point at which I (and I think others here) differ from you.
I think Descartes was right to split up reality into the physical and mental realms. I would say Prof Noble waffles after this point. As I have already pointed out, the concept of information of the non-Shannon type only makes sense with reference to a mind - human or conceivably animal.
David
Descartes was 400 years ago. Since then Physics, Chemistry, Quantum Theory and Information Science have entered and dominated the scene. His math was outstanding, but his Science and Metaphysics are sorely out of date.
Today modern science has developed a deep understanding of "Bodies" and the abstract term physical. There is no magic in Physiology (note Dr. Noble). Physical substances are defined and quantified. The basic processes that are behind bodily functions, equally so. The term "body" is fully characterized by physical processes. The idea that there is any "perfect" magic substance is lost and people understand that their bodies are made only of known elements that were
assimilated from the physical environment. They understand that complex compounds are made creatively from only these elements, as functions of electrochemical regulation and development. This is the transformational view of modern science. The chemistry of bodies is a subset of basic chemicals in the environment.
Quote: Denis Noble CBE FRS FMedSci MAE is a British physiologist and biologist who held the Burdon Sanderson Chair of Cardiovascular Physiology at the University of Oxford from 1984 to 2004 and was appointed Professor Emeritus and co-Director of Computational Physiology.
The abstract term mind has the same trajectory, but developed more recently. It still includes, in the public worldview, magical experiences. While I think these are very valid experiences, in science fields these are not part of the whole. Many scientists and theorists are happy for these
experiences to be part of spiritual phenomena and leave mind to science. I am one of those.
Matching the modern view about the physical body, mind can be defined and measured as processes of information science. Mind, as an abstraction, includes the specific processes of detection and selection. I strongly agree that "information of the non-Shannon type only makes sense with reference to a mind". Think of mind doing things just like a body.
Minds are engaging and importing meaning and regulating it to a first person view. The information processing of living things doesn't ooze personal meaning, but transform it from the ambient information arrayed in their information space. Just like physical objects, information objects have been transformed from the environment.
Dualism is a Metaphysical conceptualization. In the tradition of C.S. Peirce and William James, I take a pragmatic stance and embrace 3 environments. The physical and informational environs are open to measurement and systems analysis. Experiences with a Divine component are outside of these.