2021-08-03, 07:14 PM
The argument brewing in the "Bugs in Darwin" thread has a matched partner in "Brain vs Mind". The argument over RM+NS is over and has moved to the thesis that thoughts come from electrochemical processes, exclusively. I will argue it is likewise, ancient prejudice and we can grasp the working of mind and its evolution in living things.
This argument works with near materialism of current favor and with spiritual ideas alike. It a methodological stance as to the measurable reality of information science to reveal nature and mind.
...doesn't seem to me to be a valid definition of mind. In particular, it seems to be equally subject to the critique levelled by Bernardo against unanchored information, except that here we have unanchored information processing. It seems to me that similarly to why information cannot be the basis of reality in that it (information) only makes sense in that context when embodied (i.e., as information *about* some tangible thing), nor can information processing be the basis of a mind in that it only makes sense in that context when treated as a process of mind. Thus, mind precedes (its) information processing, and cannot be reduced to it. At least, this is how it seems to me.
Moreover, I don't see how defining mind as information processing explains subjectivity (awareness). Subjective awareness is not entailed by information processing as we well know given the electronic devices with which we're communicating: they are processing information, but they are (presumably) not aware. Thus, again, there must be something more to mind than information processing.
Finally, I don't see how defining mind as information processing encompasses the free will of, and meaningfulness chosen by, mind, both of which you affirm.
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The simple straightforward answer is that the action of mind is measured in the changing probabilities in the informational environment.
These changing probabilities can be by generated by knowing the past and bringing its mutual information to the current mental state of a living thing. Likewise, bring possible future states to the present or synthesize diverse current facts into a new configuration and change can be seen in events from purposeful activity. Each of these events is measurable.
What I am saying that is otta of the box in that the importing of the past and future are real activities. Reality includes all current physicality AND all information as probability waves past and future. The naïve version of Informational Realism is to treat the structured information, just as pragmatic science treats the physical objects it detects. The can track their historical development, their future possible states and their possible purpose use.
As a thought experiment. Picture the famous chemical soup, existing in a chaotic state. In that chemical soup's past and future there is a an actual probability for life (as embedded mind) to start creating information objects that resonate with this environment. This changes the only driver being physics, to one (like Maxwell's Demon) who can detect and respond to probability waves. Physical forces are needed, but mind is not a physical force. Mind is just as Maxwell described, directly interacting with the informational heart of reality creating function from organization of elements.
The activity that mind acts with is directly perceiving - not physical structure - (eyes come later) but organizational structure as affordances. The ingestable bit for the first cell. Mind makes information objects out of the substance of probability. Just like quantum observations tell us >> first the real-world probabilities of superposition - then a single outcome.
Minds can embody intent and extract objective meaning matching subjective purpose, even at the level of making the first working cell.
Ok - this means that what is real and functional is more than just the tangible in the here and now, it means the information objects of the past, present and future come through the informational environments of living things with the objective meaning open to being imported. The first append instruction from mind in evolution is the motion to eat. Mind organizes first and form and function follow.
The assertion is that mind evolved to see probability waves first and then later that same detection behavior developed the five senses. In the informational environment - the probability waves are the root for making living things rich in information. Mind's core function is to take these probability wave detections and make an informational object that guides a response. Not a conscious response, necessarily, but a mindful intentional behavior matching the target state output from mind.
This leads to the profitable ability being not so much consciousness, at the beginning of mind in matter, being understanding. In this arrangement the two variables to measure are how mind changes real-world events and how deeply connected with useful ideas are moment to moment understandings of a living thing.
Mind acts on physical realities indirectly by changing the underlying reality of probability waves and information structures.
This argument works with near materialism of current favor and with spiritual ideas alike. It a methodological stance as to the measurable reality of information science to reveal nature and mind.
stephenw Wrote: Wrote:mind defined as information processing.Laird Wrote:
...doesn't seem to me to be a valid definition of mind. In particular, it seems to be equally subject to the critique levelled by Bernardo against unanchored information, except that here we have unanchored information processing. It seems to me that similarly to why information cannot be the basis of reality in that it (information) only makes sense in that context when embodied (i.e., as information *about* some tangible thing), nor can information processing be the basis of a mind in that it only makes sense in that context when treated as a process of mind. Thus, mind precedes (its) information processing, and cannot be reduced to it. At least, this is how it seems to me.
Moreover, I don't see how defining mind as information processing explains subjectivity (awareness). Subjective awareness is not entailed by information processing as we well know given the electronic devices with which we're communicating: they are processing information, but they are (presumably) not aware. Thus, again, there must be something more to mind than information processing.
Finally, I don't see how defining mind as information processing encompasses the free will of, and meaningfulness chosen by, mind, both of which you affirm.
***************************************************************
The simple straightforward answer is that the action of mind is measured in the changing probabilities in the informational environment.
These changing probabilities can be by generated by knowing the past and bringing its mutual information to the current mental state of a living thing. Likewise, bring possible future states to the present or synthesize diverse current facts into a new configuration and change can be seen in events from purposeful activity. Each of these events is measurable.
What I am saying that is otta of the box in that the importing of the past and future are real activities. Reality includes all current physicality AND all information as probability waves past and future. The naïve version of Informational Realism is to treat the structured information, just as pragmatic science treats the physical objects it detects. The can track their historical development, their future possible states and their possible purpose use.
As a thought experiment. Picture the famous chemical soup, existing in a chaotic state. In that chemical soup's past and future there is a an actual probability for life (as embedded mind) to start creating information objects that resonate with this environment. This changes the only driver being physics, to one (like Maxwell's Demon) who can detect and respond to probability waves. Physical forces are needed, but mind is not a physical force. Mind is just as Maxwell described, directly interacting with the informational heart of reality creating function from organization of elements.
The activity that mind acts with is directly perceiving - not physical structure - (eyes come later) but organizational structure as affordances. The ingestable bit for the first cell. Mind makes information objects out of the substance of probability. Just like quantum observations tell us >> first the real-world probabilities of superposition - then a single outcome.
Minds can embody intent and extract objective meaning matching subjective purpose, even at the level of making the first working cell.
Ok - this means that what is real and functional is more than just the tangible in the here and now, it means the information objects of the past, present and future come through the informational environments of living things with the objective meaning open to being imported. The first append instruction from mind in evolution is the motion to eat. Mind organizes first and form and function follow.
The assertion is that mind evolved to see probability waves first and then later that same detection behavior developed the five senses. In the informational environment - the probability waves are the root for making living things rich in information. Mind's core function is to take these probability wave detections and make an informational object that guides a response. Not a conscious response, necessarily, but a mindful intentional behavior matching the target state output from mind.
This leads to the profitable ability being not so much consciousness, at the beginning of mind in matter, being understanding. In this arrangement the two variables to measure are how mind changes real-world events and how deeply connected with useful ideas are moment to moment understandings of a living thing.
Mind acts on physical realities indirectly by changing the underlying reality of probability waves and information structures.