(2017-09-08, 07:45 AM)E. Flowers Wrote: [ -> ]Not to parapsychology nor to the double slit (i.e. it's one of the interpretations of the mind-numbing delayed-choice quantum eraser). But, I'm not sure how it would account for the meditators doing better unless the researchers themselves influence the outcome...
Exactly. If consciousness affects matter, does it do only when focusing attention or is it a process always at work? Maybe it also happens at an unconscious level, just like breathing and balancing hormones etc...
In which case you have also the experimenter's interaction, and if distance does not matter (which seems to be the case) we also have the global effect of all other conscious beings... and I guess I am already smelling smoke coming out of my ears at this point!!
cheers
(2017-09-08, 01:28 AM)E. Flowers Wrote: [ -> ]No, Steve. We know that at least some complexity is required to be an 'observer'. You can't really sanitize anything to the point where each and every microorganism is wiped and if it was simply a matter of having some sort of primitive environmental awareness, then bacteria or viruses would be capable of causing the proverbial wave function collapse. That doesn't happen. If it did, it's arguable if we would even know of the existence of the WFC, since it would happen a priori To our involvement with the system unless we ran the test under extrairdinary conditions.
Inserting complexity is where you go wrong. Do you know what this word "observer" means in it's use by physicists? It means a disturbance of some kind on the quantum system. Photons are capable of causing a disturbance as are other other things. It means taking a measurement. A human could be involved or a machine it matters not the result would be the same. Consciousness is not required.
Ok, leave simple cell animals out. For that matter leave only humans. Better yet leave only infants whom have no concepts of how this universe works. And yet it works the same for them as it does for everyone else. No matter where you live, the particular philosophy you like, religion or not, skeptic or believer the universe unfolds exactly the same for each and everyone of us. Why if it's preached humans can control reality? That's what Radin et.al. is really testing for.
(2017-09-08, 06:25 AM)Bucky Wrote: [ -> ]Extraordinary is subjective. But subjectivitiy is an illusion ... ergo there is no extraordinary claim
I guess your right that influencing reality via your will isn't extraordinary.
(2017-09-08, 09:59 AM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]Quote:Extraordinary is subjective. But subjectivitiy is an illusion ... ergo there is no extraordinary claim
I guess your right that influencing reality via your will isn't extraordinary.
Sorry I can't see how your reply has anything to do with the quoted text.
Maybe you are referring to something else?
Or is it some kind of Klingon humor that I don't understand... ?
(2017-09-08, 09:20 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]And how are they supposed to do that, without seeing the comments in question, in their proper context.
I think we're getting closer to a more general policy with respect to moderation on matters of potential defamation which will determine the light in which your posts are viewed. But you can catch up on the relevant thread and tell me if you disagree.
(2017-09-08, 09:55 AM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]Inserting complexity is where you go wrong. Do you know what this word "observer" means in it's use by physicists? It means a disturbance of some kind on the quantum system. Photons are capable of causing a disturbance as are other other things. It means taking a measurement. A human could be involved or a machine it matters not the result would be the same. Consciousness is not required.
Ok, leave simple cell animals out. For that matter leave only humans. Better yet leave only infants whom have no concepts of how this universe works. And yet it works the same for them as it does for everyone else. No matter where you live, the particular philosophy you like, religion or not, skeptic or believer the universe unfolds exactly the same for each and everyone of us. Why if it's preached humans can control reality? That's what Radin et.al. is really testing for.
No Steve, that is bullshit. If it was as simple as disturbing the system an automated measuring device would be enough, it isn't. The rest of your argument is just pitiful (especially your attempt at trying to make this an anthropocentric issue)... The shallowness of it actually makes me deduce that you lack any formal STEM education.
(2017-09-08, 10:21 AM)Bucky Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry I can't see how your reply has anything to do with the quoted text.
Maybe you are referring to something else?
Or is it some kind of Klingon humor that I don't understand... ?
He seems to think that biological complexity somehow means "people". That is pretty hilarious in my book.
(2017-09-08, 09:55 AM)Steve001 Wrote: [ -> ]Photons are capable of causing a disturbance as are other other things. It means taking a measurement. A human could be involved or a machine it matters not the result would be the same. Consciousness is not required.
We don't really know that. You're just representing one side of the argument, the one that says consciousness is not required. Easy
If we did know we would have solved the measurement problem, but it's still a freaking mystery and consciousness might have a lot to do with it. Or it might not, or both.
Cheers
(2017-09-08, 04:16 PM)Bucky Wrote: [ -> ]We don't really know that. You're just representing one side of the argument, the one that says consciousness is not required. Easy
If we did know we would have solved the measurement problem, but it's still a freaking mystery and consciousness might have a lot to do with it. Or it might not, or both.
Cheers
Actually, I would pay Steve a 5-star hotel in the Bahamas if he could show me a single experiment where a "machine" caused the collapse. The main question is if the observer is just a passive element or not.
I have no formal STEM education either so I make no pretense of knowing how wave collapse is brought about but, from my limited understanding, it seems that consciousness is always required to determine whether the wave has collapsed or not. Isn't that the point of the delayed choice eraser experiment?
[See below for video link]