(2017-08-26, 12:43 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]err, no I think cheating did... why do we need to know about bollocks like drawings being put in a safe with a combination lock and two signatures being required to open it. These are not normal protocols, why introduce them?
Oh dear... this is so disappointing...
I understand your point here, for sure...just curious what Geller (or anyone else) could do that would convince you?
(2017-08-26, 08:00 AM)Laird Wrote: [ -> ]Responding to Leuders's post in another thread:
All of that which you posted was cheap, and sometimes demonstrably false. For example, you quoted (in bold) Lawrence R. Samuel as saying: "Over the course of his six-week stint at SRI (for which he was paid 100$ a day and all expenses), Geller had not even been searched for magnets".
Watch the video I posted above. They swept him with a magnetometer on several occasions.
Re Joe Nickell's claims: if you think that Uri is a mere magician, then, again, watch the video above and please explain how he evaded double-blind procedures to fool the researchers.
Nobody knows how he did it for sure but there have been suggestions of how he fooled those researchers in the skeptical literature.
Quote:"Skeptics have criticized the test for lacking stringent controls. They have pointed out that the pictures drawn by Geller did not match what they were supposed to correspond to but appeared, rather, to be responses to verbal cues. What constituted a “hit” is open to dispute. The conditions under which the experiments were conducted were extremely loose, even chaotic at times.
The sealed room in which Uri was placed had an aperture from which he could have peeked out, and his confederate Shipi was in and about the laboratory and could have conveyed signals to him. The same was true in another test of clairvoyance, where Geller passed twice but surprisingly guessed eight out of ten times the top face of a die that was placed in a closed metal box. The probability of this happening by chance alone was, we are told, one in a million. Critics maintained that the protocol of this experiment was, again, poorly designed, that Geller could have peeked into the box, and that dozens of other tests from which there were no positive results were not reported."
Paul Kurtz.
A Skeptic's Handbook of Parapsychology. p. 213
I have no reason to believe the experiments were properly controlled or legit double-blind studies. His confederate Shipi was in the same laboratory, that invalidates everything. Who knows what went down?
It is possible Uri peeked through a hole in the wall of the booth for one of the drawing experiments (I think it was James Randi who discovered this hole). There are possible naturalistic explanations, possibilities of fraud and sensory leakage were not ruled out etc so to me it is unlikely these experiments are evidence for psi.
Quote:Watch the video I posted above. They swept him with a magnetometer on several occasions.
James Randi has addressed this. Here is what he wrote:
Quote:"Geller is shown waving his hands about over a simple compass. We are solemnly assured that his hands have been carefully examined with a probe to be sure he has no magnets concealed. Nonetheless, the compass needle deflects!
But it moves, not in rhythm with his hand movements, but in time with his head, and only when his head approaches the device! Open wide Uri. What's this magnet doing in your mouth?"
James Randi. (1982).
The Truth about Uri Geller. Prometheus Books. p. 37
Geller was not properly searched. Sounds like a magnet in his mouth.
Also interesting to note Harold Puthoff and Russell Targ were not convinced about his metal bending:
Quote:"It has been widely reported that Geller has demonstrated the ability to bend mental by paranormal means. Although metal bending by Geller has been observed in our laboratory, we have not been able to combine such observations with adequately controlled experiments to obtain data sufficient to support the paranormal hypothesis."
Targ, Russell; Puthoff, Harold. (1974).
Information Transmission Under Conditions of Sensory Shielding. Nature 251: 602-607.
Quote:They swept him with a magnetometer on several occasions.
Update
I just watched the entire video you posted.
In the video (24 mins in) it says:
Quote:"In this case, we found later that these types of deflections could be produced by a small piece of metal, so small in fact that they could not be detected by the magnetometer. Therefore, even though we had no evidence of this, we still considered the experiment inconclusive and an unsatisfactory type of experiment altogether."
Puthoff and Targ were not convinced by the compass experiment, they considered it 'unsatisfactory'. It is possible that a small piece of metal was used, that was so small it could not be detected by the magnetometer.
As Randi said, it was likely this magnet was in his mouth. Do you still believe this experiment was well controlled? The evidence is suggestive of fraud, not psychic powers. I will comment later on the other experiments.
I posted this in as a
response in another thread but it probably has more relevance in this one. Anyhow, there is now a copy in each.
I think James was referring to Leonore Piper as his one white crow but, nevertheless, I'm interested to read more about
Stephan Ossowiecki. For that matter, D. D. Home was the Geller of his day - perhaps even more so. Houdini was perhaps the Randi of his day too, claiming to have debunked Home (although there seems to be doubt that he ever did so successfully). Here's
Michael Prescott's summary of the D. D. Home controversy (including comments about Randi's own attempts to debunk Home).
Oddly, although Houdini tasked himself to expose psychics, etc., he seems to have been a
fervent believer in reincarnation. Go figure.
(2017-08-27, 03:36 AM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]I posted this in as a response in another thread but it probably has more relevance in this one. Anyhow, there is now a copy in each.
I think James was referring to Leonore Piper as his one white crow but, nevertheless, I'm interested to read more about Stephan Ossowiecki. For that matter, D. D. Home was the Geller of his day - perhaps even more so. Houdini was perhaps the Randi of his day too, claiming to have debunked Home (although there seems to be doubt that he ever did so successfully). Here's Michael Prescott's summary of the D. D. Home controversy (including comments about Randi's own attempts to debunk Home).
Oddly, although Houdini tasked himself to expose psychics, etc., he seems to have been a fervent believer in reincarnation. Go figure.
Houdini believed in reincarnation, a creator God and life after death but he made it clear these were his beliefs, not scientific fact. A thread about his personal beliefs here and an interview with Houdini:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/for...p?t=307385
In the introduction to Houdini's book
A Magician Among The Spirits (1924), he wrote:
Quote:I therefore want to make it clear that I am not a scoffer. I firmly believe in a Supreme Being and that there is a hereafter... My mind has always been open and receptive and ready to believe.
Houdini's book is online here:
https://archive.org/details/AMagicianAmo...rryHoudini
Quote:I'm interested to read more about Stephan Ossowiecki.
Regarding Polish medium Stephan Ossowiecki, he was tested by ethnologist Stanislaw Poniatowski with negative results.
Quote:"When confronted with stone tools, Ossowiecki tended to provide descriptions of their makers that sounded suspiciously like stereotypical Neanderthals, replete with sloping foreheads and large brow ridges. The problem here is that he was often provided with artefacts that had been made not by Neanderthals but by ancient, anatomically modern looking human beings (often called Cro Magnons for the cave site in France where the type of specimens were first defined). In other words, whereas the accuracy or legitimacy of most of Ossowiecki's pronouncements cannot possibly be assessed, where they can be, he was pretty consistently wrong."
Kenneth L. Feder. (2010).
Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis to the Walam Olum. p. 203
(2017-08-27, 01:55 PM)Leuders Wrote: [ -> ]Regarding Polish medium Stephan Ossowiecki, he was tested by ethnologist Stanislaw Poniatowski with negative results.
Kenneth L. Feder. (2010). Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis to the Walam Olum. p. 203
Did you answer Laird's question from another thread (I can't remember which right now) - are you the Leuders from RationalWiki?
(2017-08-27, 07:48 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]Did you answer Laird's question from another thread (I can't remember which right now) - are you the Leuders from RationalWiki?
Would it bother you if I was?
(2017-08-27, 08:07 PM)Leuders Wrote: [ -> ]Would it bother you if I was?
It would put your posts in context. Are you going to keep avoiding the question?
)