Quote:Dr. Brian Cutter and Dr. Dustin Crummett have developed a new argument for the existence of God from something they call "psychophyiscal harmony." Watch the video to find out what this new argument is all about.
edit ->
Quote:The argument for God from psychophysical harmony is one of the latest (and strongest) theistic arguments. One of the issues with the argument, however, is that it can be a bit difficult to understand. In this video, I'm joined by Dr. Brian Cutter (one of the paper's authors) to explain this argument in a way that is accessible and easy to understand.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(This post was last modified: 2023-05-21, 12:04 AM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
I watched part of each of those videos, and felt more and more confused!
Let me see if I can restate this idea as clearly (to me) as possible.
If dumb materialism is true, then we aren't really aware of anything, we just receive inputs - such as a hot sensation - and we are wired up to respond in the appropriate way - turn down the central heating, or pull away from the stove, as appropriate.
Next we go to slightly less dumb materialism where somehow we have conscious awareness but that has no effect on the physical world (I honestly can't understand anyone believing that, but it has a fancy name - epiphenomenalism - so some people must do). In this case you need a reason why the physical body takes actions appropriate for the mental state, even though you believe that mental state is not causally effective.
Thus you have to believe materialism is false. That may make Christianity or some other religion more plausible, but it also opens up a whole set of other possibilities.
Note that because these people never seem to consider actual evidence for instance for NDEs or reincarnation they never get into the really interesting stuff at all!
David
(2023-05-21, 02:38 PM)David001 Wrote: I watched part of each of those videos, and felt more and more confused!
Let me see if I can restate this idea as clearly (to me) as possible.
If dumb materialism is true, then we aren't really aware of anything, we just receive inputs - such as a hot sensation - and we are wired up to respond in the appropriate way - turn down the central heating, or pull away from the stove, as appropriate.
Next we go to slightly less dumb materialism where somehow we have conscious awareness but that has no effect on the physical world (I honestly can't understand anyone believing that, but it has a fancy name - epiphenomenalism - so some people must do). In this case you need a reason why the physical body takes actions appropriate for the mental state, even though you believe that mental state is not causally effective.
Thus you have to believe materialism is false. That may make Christianity or some other religion more plausible, but it also opens up a whole set of other possibilities.
Note that because these people never seem to consider actual evidence for instance for NDEs or reincarnation they never get into the really interesting stuff at all!
David I don't think there are many physicalist researchers that are also epiphenomenalists (Evolutionary argument against it being common)
Eliminative materialism is more prominent but still not exactly a majority position.
(2023-05-21, 03:31 PM)quirkybrainmeat Wrote: I don't think there are many physicalist researchers that are also epiphenomenalists (Evolutionary argument against it being common)
Eliminative materialism is more prominent but still not exactly a majority position.
Surely Eliminative materialism was more or less covered by my use of the term "dumb materialism"?
David
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2023-05-21, 02:38 PM)David001 Wrote: I watched part of each of those videos, and felt more and more confused!
Let me see if I can restate this idea as clearly (to me) as possible.
If dumb materialism is true, then we aren't really aware of anything, we just receive inputs - such as a hot sensation - and we are wired up to respond in the appropriate way - turn down the central heating, or pull away from the stove, as appropriate.
Next we go to slightly less dumb materialism where somehow we have conscious awareness but that has no effect on the physical world (I honestly can't understand anyone believing that, but it has a fancy name - epiphenomenalism - so some people must do). In this case you need a reason why the physical body takes actions appropriate for the mental state, even though you believe that mental state is not causally effective.
Thus you have to believe materialism is false. That may make Christianity or some other religion more plausible, but it also opens up a whole set of other possibilities.
Note that because these people never seem to consider actual evidence for instance for NDEs or reincarnation they never get into the really interesting stuff at all!
David
See the links in my post above by Amos Wollen.
It isn't really about materialism specifically, the argument is meant to carry across most metaphysical positions as even in Idealism there could be a gap between your actions and your thoughts as an individual.
I think it's interesting as an argument [even though] it doesn't make me believe in the Omni-God nor am I sure Goff is correct in his belief that this argument is going to "change the world".
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(This post was last modified: 2023-05-21, 10:27 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
The sad part is that I'm pretty sure that after the philosophers finish splitting hairs over this subject, they will mostly stick with materialism. For all their erudite discussions, they seem blind to the obvious truth, and even if they do see the truth, they equate that with Christianity or theism.
Do they ever think beyond and see the rich variety of possibilities that non-materialism offers?
David
(2023-05-21, 10:31 PM)David001 Wrote: The sad part is that I'm pretty sure that after the philosophers finish splitting hairs over this subject, they will mostly stick with materialism. For all their erudite discussions, they seem blind to the obvious truth, and even if they do see the truth, they equate that with Christianity or theism.
Do they ever think beyond and see the rich variety of possibilities that non-materialism offers?
David
The history of philosophy is both long (in terms of time) and wide (in terms of philosophers across the globe).
And philosophers and scientists have shifted away from materialism due to different philosophical arguments.
Now do I think this particular argument will have a big effect? Maybe not, because I think as you point out it's not easy to see what the problem is and, upon seeing it, if the problem is a big deal. But Goff, himself a philosopher who has shifted away from materialism, thinks it is a big deal. World changing in his opinion.
So I guess we'll see what happens...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(This post was last modified: 2023-05-21, 10:41 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 3 times in total.)
|
![[-]](https://psiencequest.net/forums/images/collapse.png)