Has Dawkins shot atheism in the foot?

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(2019-01-30, 08:44 PM)malf Wrote: Yes. As the cultural dominance of organised religion is deconstructed, folk are bound to cling on to other narratives to rescue "meaning" and "purpose".

God forbid anyone try to rescue the idea that human life is meaningful LOL

I see it as the hold of traditional religion being broken at the same time as the fundamentalist materialist-centered faith of pseudo-skeptics.

After all it's not just the general populace, academia seems to be more and more inclined to accept non-materialist world views as scientifically valid.

At this point really seems like New Atheism is just one more dead cult on the ash heap of history.  Wink
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2019-01-30, 08:52 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel.)
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(2019-01-30, 08:44 PM)malf Wrote: Yes. As the cultural dominance of organised religion is deconstructed, folk are bound to cling on to other narratives to rescue "meaning" and "purpose".

There you go with the scare quotes again. And the whole tone is pejorative, using the phrase "cling on to", for instance. And the word "rescue" to indicate desperation. 

As Sciborg legitimately asks - what's wrong with at least looking for meaning and purpose? Clearly you'd prefer a nihilistic approach which denies meaning but I always wonder why that worldview needs defending or promoting. If there is no meaning to your life, what do you gain from trying to convince others that their lives are also worthless?
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2019-01-30, 11:05 PM)Kamarling Wrote: There you go with the scare quotes again. And the whole tone is pejorative, using the phrase "cling on to", for instance. And the word "rescue" to indicate desperation. 

As Sciborg legitimately asks - what's wrong with at least looking for meaning and purpose? Clearly you'd prefer a nihilistic approach which denies meaning but I always wonder why that worldview needs defending or promoting. If there is no meaning to your life, what do you gain from trying to convince others that their lives are also worthless?

I’m not sure it’s about ‘preference’ per se with Malf. More like what Malf thinks is true.
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(2019-01-30, 11:24 PM)Obiwan Wrote: I’m not sure it’s about ‘preference’ per se with Malf. More like what Malf thinks is true.

I see what you mean but the fact that anyone who thinks that nihilism is true and then goes on to argue for it on a forum such as this surely shows a preference for a worldview if not for the implications of that worldview.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2019-01-30, 11:05 PM)Kamarling Wrote: There you go with the scare quotes again. And the whole tone is pejorative, using the phrase "cling on to", for instance. And the word "rescue" to indicate desperation. 

As Sciborg legitimately asks - what's wrong with at least looking for meaning and purpose? Clearly you'd prefer a nihilistic approach which denies meaning but I always wonder why that worldview needs defending or promoting. If there is no meaning to your life, what do you gain from trying to convince others that their lives are also worthless?

Heh. I was probably triggered by Sci's use of "New Age", a movement which has made the most of the vacuum caused by religion's collapse, and relies upon an abandonment of "healthy" skepticism.

Once you let that go, it opens the door to a lot of the nonsense we see on the Skeptiko forum these days. Select your data, and then claim that you're "following it wherever it goes".
(2019-01-31, 01:34 AM)malf Wrote: Heh. I was probably triggered by Sci's use of "New Age", a movement which has made the most of the vacuum caused by religion's collapse, and relies upon an abandonment of "healthy" skepticism.

Once you let that go, it opens the door to a lot of the nonsense we see on the Skeptiko forum these days. Select your data, and then claim that you're "following it wherever it goes".

Not much disagreement with either of those points, malf. Much as some of my worldview overlaps with New Age concepts, I give New Age groups a wide berth due to the apparent willingness to apply the label to every fad, lifestyle trend or psychological affectation that bubbles up from the froth. As for Skeptiko, that's one of the reasons I'm not a member of both forums. I might disagree with some selections for what fits those characterisations, however.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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(2019-01-31, 01:34 AM)malf Wrote:  the vacuum caused by religion's collapse, 

Which collapse was that?  The hold that religion has had on the world has collapsed, thank God (That's the guy who gave us free will and intelligence) but religion itself is as alive as it ever was.
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