Regarding the claim that no one knows what I'm looking for.
I am looking for a description of how the mind moves from the free possibility of multiple choices to a single choice.
I have two choices. The final choice is not determined. The final choice is not a coin flip. How is the final choice made?
What does my mind do in order to select from two choices indeterministically?
When I have two choices and can freely choose either one of them, without the final choice being dictated by the current state of the world, what does produce the final choice?
Like that.
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2020-11-10, 01:13 AM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: May I summarize the conversation so far.
Sciborg: The world is not limited to determinism and randomness. If you give up on that, an explanation is possible.
Me: Okay, I give up on that.
Sciborg: No, you can't do that because you think free will is incoherent.
Is there any chance you will let me give up on the dichotomy? That includes not rejecting future descriptions just because they aren't dichotomous.
~~ Paul
You said you'd give up on the dichotomy in the old 75 page thread as well.
And then inevitably it all came back around to things are deterministic or random.
There's already 75 pages of explanations if you give up on the dichotomy. Actually more if you go back to the Skeptiko threads.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2020-11-10, 01:26 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: You said you'd give up on the dichotomy in the old 75 page thread as well.
And then inevitably it all came back around to things are deterministic or random.
There's already 75 pages of explanations if you give up on the dichotomy. Actually more if you go back to the Skeptiko threads.
I hereby promise not to reject an explanation just because it requires something other than determinism and true randomness. Indeterminism is on the table.
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-10, 01:35 AM by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos.)
(2020-11-10, 01:34 AM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: I hereby promise not to reject an explanation just because it requires something other than determinism and true randomness. Indeterminism is on the table.
~~ Paul
I can't imagine I could say anything I haven't said in the other thread that spanned 75 pages, so I recommend the following books:
A Place for Consciousness: Probing the Deep Structure of the Natural World (Philosophy of Mind)
Of Time and Lamentation: Reflections on Transience
Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide
I drew on these books for my previous arguments, but obviously a forum post or two can't condense an entire book. Hopefully one of these gives you a satisfying explanation.
Or maybe some other forum member will post something that works for you.
Good luck!
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2020-11-10, 01:57 AM)Smaw Wrote: Would it be better to say you're looking for how a decision can be made without outside influences that would make it not completely free? Eg how can someone decide what to have for breakfast if their life experiences effect that decision.
I don't think the decision has to be completely free. It just has to have some component of freedom.
Perhaps I arrive at two choices deterministically. Then I select one of the two choices freely.
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-10, 02:03 AM by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos.)
(2020-11-10, 02:02 AM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: I don't think the decision has to be completely free. It just has to have some component of freedom.
Perhaps I arrive at two choices deterministically. Then I select one of the two choices freely.
~~ Paul
Can we establish one thing?
Do you believe that everything was determined at the instant of the Big Bang? I'd just like to make sure that is what you would like us to challenge with our examples.
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
(2020-11-10, 03:01 AM)Kamarling Wrote: Can we establish one thing?
Do you believe that everything was determined at the instant of the Big Bang? I'd just like to make sure that is what you would like us to challenge with our examples.
No, because of random influences.
I'm not looking for quite such an adventurous challenge, but if that is necessary, great. I'm really just looking for a description of making a free choice. Even a vague outline would be good. Heck, I don't even care of the "mechanism" for making such a decision is conscious. I'm not sure why it would have to be.
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
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