The UFO/UAP coverup continues

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

At the risk of a mistaken online psychoanalysis of my own:

Is it possible that the original loss of hope was such an unpleasant experience for you that, so as to avoid the possibility of another - even worse because compounded - loss of hope, you are now disposed to avoid getting your hopes up again, and that it is that disposition which leads you to reflexively dismiss the anomalous craft which might otherwise raise your hopes?

Not really. I live in a country known for having the highest trust in public institutions. The Prime Minister, until recently, lived nearby and even frequented the same pizza place as I do, and used the stair master at the same local gym. These leaders are just like us—ordinary people. This includes the leaders of the U.S., where aliens are supposedly hidden. I find it hard to believe in a conspiracy about extraterrestrials remaining undiscovered; after all, even the Manhattan Project wasn't kept secret. Moreover, considering the impossibility of interstellar travel without using exotic physics—which, if it existed, would probably disrupt our part of the universe—I’m left in a situation where I care not about reading about someone who thinks they have seen a UFO. My interest in this debate is merely to caution those who believe a significant revelation is imminent not to get their “hopes” up. If the inquiry into these matters isn’t motivated by “dreams” as were my pursuit of faster than light travelling, then all good with me (I still don’t like conspiracy theories)

I have noticed that this thread relies upon two conflicting premises.

1. The military can't be trusted - they are obviously covering up.
2. David Grusch and the whistleblowers can be trusted because they are military figures.

I have noticed that this thread relies upon two conflicting premises.

1. The military can't be trusted - they are obviously covering up.
2. David Grusch and the whistleblowers can be trusted because they are military figures.

The usual snarky remark with no response at all to the substantive arguments presented, such as my post #59 responding to sbu (https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-t...3#pid57113).

[Laird]

I find it hard to believe in a conspiracy about extraterrestrials remaining undiscovered

It's a good thing nobody's asking you to believe in such a conspiracy then: after all, the reason we're talking about it in the first place is because it has been disclosed, by not just one - very prominent - whistleblower, but multiple.

If I understand you correctly, in one breath you suggest that political leaders, being everyday, trustworthy people, are not prone to, or perhaps not even capable of, initiating and maintaining hidden projects ("conspiracies"), and in the next you reference the Manhattan Project - pretty much the epitome of a hidden project initiated and maintained by political leaders.

This doesn't make sense to me.

I might be misunderstanding, but if I am, then it's not clear what you do mean by your assertion that political leaders are everyday and trustworthy people, and why this would be germane to their capacity to hide a recovered craft reverse engineering programme but not to their capacity to hide an atomic bomb project.

In any case, it needs to be pointed out that the allegations seem to be that this programme is not instigated or at least no longer maintained by political leaders, but rather by rogue elements of the military-industrial complex who have concealed it so as to avoid political oversight.

I'm also not sure what your suggestion that any "exotic physics [supporting interstellar travel] would probably disrupt our part of the universe" is based on, but you're more versed in physics than I am, so I assume that there is some reasoning behind it. I see no a priori reason to accept it though.

[Laird]

I have noticed that this thread relies upon two conflicting premises.

1. The military can't be trusted - they are obviously covering up.
2. David Grusch and the whistleblowers can be trusted because they are military figures.

This is a straw man based on a false generalisation and oversimplification. Nobody has said that anybody can or can't be trusted merely because they are part of the military.

Do better, Brian.

I mean it.

Deal in logic and facts, not fallacies and emotional reactivity.

You're in a part of the forums intended for those who already accept the reality of these phenomena, and who are interested in exploring and learning about them. We shouldn't have to waste our time dealing with nonsense like this.

It's a good thing nobody's asking you to believe in such a conspiracy then: after all, the reason we're talking about it in the first place is because it has been disclosed, by not just one - very prominent - whistleblower, but multiple.

If I understand you correctly, in one breath you suggest that political leaders, being everyday, trustworthy people, are not prone to, or perhaps not even capable of, initiating and maintaining hidden projects ("conspiracies"), and in the next you reference the Manhattan Project - pretty much the epitome of a hidden project initiated and maintained by political leaders.

This doesn't make sense to me.

I might be misunderstanding, but if I am, then it's not clear what you do mean by your assertion that political leaders are everyday and trustworthy people, and why this would be germane to their capacity to hide a recovered craft reverse engineering programme but not to their capacity to hide an atomic bomb project.

In any case, it needs to be pointed out that the allegations seem to be that this programme is not instigated or at least no longer maintained by political leaders, but rather by rogue elements of the military-industrial complex who have concealed it so as to avoid political oversight.

I'm also not sure what your suggestion that any "exotic physics [supporting interstellar travel] would probably disrupt our part of the universe" is based on, but you're more versed in physics than I am, so I assume that there is some reasoning behind it. I see no a priori reason to accept it though.

I don’t think the motivation for hiding the development of the nuclear bomb during World War II can be compared with the motivation for hiding alien artifacts. But I think we have come full circle in the discussion. I have explained why I would never contemplate the existence of extraterrestrial objects based solely on testimony from a fanciful individual who completely lacks objective data. I understand that the discrepancy in our opinions is mainly rooted in how much 'truthfulness' one assigns to subjective accounts (and maybe also a bias that if there’s no immediate explanation then it’s surely extraterrestial)

I wish you a happy ufo hunting 

[Laird]

I don’t think the motivation of hiding the development of the nuclear bomb in the middle of world war ii can be compared with the motivation of hiding alien artifacts.

In what relevant sense are they incomparable? Both have obvious motivations for secrecy.

a fanciful individual totally lacking objective data

At this point, that remains a mere and unsubstantiated assertion (of mere opinion), which, as such, is unpersuasive.

Dr. Garry Nolan in a recent interview pointed out yet again for the record that the recent historical DOD (that is, AARO) report that essentially dismissed UAPs had a conclusion boiling down to the unsubstantiated claim that UAP simply have no NHI origins ("relax, nothing really here, folks") but hardly any evidence or data is provided to show the public how they got to any of those conclusions, evidence and data which could be used for an in dependent verification. He pointed out that AARO hasn't operated in good faith and that they've been allowed to get away with it. Nobody seems to have made a fuss over it.

It’s not a level playing field. A claim requires proof, but claiming “UAP are always manmade or natural phenomena” and then only providing a little data related to some of the fraction of the cases that are confirmed to be manmade or natural phenomena, and failing to provide data associated with the remaining “anomalous” cases, means that the conclusion is totally biased, deliberately incomplete and drawn from just a subset of the available data. Leading to the inevitable conclusion that there must be a strong hidden agenda operating here.

AARO is allowed to just throw out bogus conclusions without providing any evidence or supplemental data, but also, according to AARO, all whistleblower testimonies aren't evidence and can be explained as them being confused, delusional, mistaken, or outright lying.

Is it any wonder that no one, public or whistleblowers, has any faith or trust in AARO? Actually, AARO is helping the DoD and Government do a speedrun on how to make the public lose faith in public institutions and destabilize our country.

Excerpt: (https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1...EIoBAAA%3D)

The full podcast: https://youtu.be/iUxuRQNTLgY?si=ACMEoXC_CuQsWjt7