I'm typing this on my phone so if there's any weird formatting stuff or whatever,, now you know. Also this things going to be a bit rambly as a result. I had to write it up over the course of a few days and I hope I said everything I wanted to but obviously questions are welcome. I just might take some time to get back to you.
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I'm was asked quite awhile ago on skeptiko, more than once, if I would be willing to attempt inducing a shared dream with someone on the forums as an experiment. I don't really want to yet and I'll try explaining why. I also want to detail my idea of how such an experiment would go and possible complications and dangers of doing one.
My main reason for not wanting to do an experiment is that inducing shared dreams and other projection/OBE related skills are not the focus of my training. Telekinesis and other immediately local direct effects are. So there's very little for me to gain by putting my time and energy, figuratively and literally, into doing such an experiment.
Even if the experiment succeeded it probably wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I mean I already know that I can induce shared dreams and how I do it. It would only go to maybe, but probably not, convince one or more other people that I can induce shared dreams. And to be honest there's a lot of reasons that I'd rather there not be concrete proof of that ability out on the Internet. At least right now I can talk about it and probably get dismissed as "just another dumb religious hippy high on something" by the mainstream and others.
Some people may not understand why someone would not want to be known as the guy who can induce shared dreams in people, poltergeist to remote locations, etc and that's Ok. I do, and that's all that matters. Even though the chances of getting recognition let alone anything bad happening are very remote I'm still not comfortable with it.
I do have plans to do public demonstrations of telekinesis and the like when I have a level of skill that I'm comfortable with. But I doubt that will be happening anytime within the next five years. Both because I don't know how long it will take me to get the amount of ability that I deem "safe" to demonstrate but also because the moment I finally get it I'm taking a nice long vacation to destress from all the crazy.
The last reason I don't really think it's a great idea to do such an experiment is one spirit both Dreamsoap and I know who will remain unnamed. When I first started writing this I did use their name. Or at least I used their colour coded pseudonym, but it started to feel like I was just singling them out and insulting them after awhile. On that note I never use spirits real names when I talk about them on here. Giving out their real names is a douchey breach of privacy and personal trust.
They can also help anyone with half decent skill find/contact them and they have no desire to interact with random people they don't know or care about. Granted they can do a lot better job hiding/protecting themselves than I can since using pseudonyms is pretty much the psychic equivalent of WEP encryption on a router. But it's something I can do that will help, even if it's just a little, so I do it.
Anyways, the whole issue with them needs a bit of explanation so here's the semi short version. These people have been attempting to prove their own existence among other things to me since about 2009. They eventually cobbled enough evidence together over time to prove that they exist and aren't just things I'm imagining. They've been less successful on the "other things" though. Namely because it's a claim that we all knew each other in past lives. Which on its own is fine. But the nature of said lives is pretty far from the average reincarnation report and sounds incredibly fantastical on the surface even though nothing about it actually is. Nor does any of it seem impossible. My major issue with it is that I don't see how "I" could have been a part of it. I don't see how "I" could have had the personality necessary to live that way.
It's not that they don't have evidence or that their evidence isn't compelling it's that my ability to properly verify most of it is non existent. And so I repeatedly throw it out, explain it away, or generally don't believe it. But usually not before half believing it for a bit then flip flopping because maybe there might be some other explanation I'm not aware of. It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to determine whether any individual projection is real or not and thus nearly impossible to tell what things I've heard are actually things they've told me or just my own imagination.
This is a major frustration for them, especially the flip flopping, fights have happened over it. Some of those fights physically injured me. Which itself acted as pretty compelling evidence that they existed. These days I'm getting to around 99% convinced that the "other stuff" is also true. Because of the sheer amount of frustration all of this has caused them, they are done listening to anything that remotely sounds like me having doubts about things like whether magic is real or not. They are also very unsupportive of anything that isn't about me working on "coming home" which is a whole other thing I'll have to go into some other time. Anyways, when I brought up the topic of inducing dreams with random people to get myself more data to show that I can indeed induce shared dreams they were less than excited about it. In short they think it's a waste of time and I shouldn't do it. But if I do it anyways they don't want to be involved and have no interest meeting or talking to random people down here.
One person in particular went quite a bit further with it. They threatened that if I waste my time doing shared dreams with random people, they will go to those people and/or people related to them, radicalize them into a cult worshiping them, and then... I guess... bad things happen? I don't really know, they never really elaborated much past the cult part. Originally it started as just a joke, like, "ha ha, wouldn't it be funny if I told the random guy you brought up that I was a God(dess) and they believed me?" and then it became this thing they'd jokingly remind me of any time I talked about the pros and cons of doing shared dreams with other people. Until it just became an overt threat.
And it's something they could do too. Both Dreamsoap and I know firsthand that they can inject emotions into a person. Making you feel whatever they want you to feel. One way this was used In our case was as a tranquilizer to calm us down during a couple high stress situations. It's not an ability unique to them or anything. They can certainly poltergeist if they really feel like it as well. Pretty much never do these days and even when they did they typically used me as a conduit to make it easier for them. I'm sure I'll have to explain how all that works too but not now. But if they really wanted to they could certainly do it. They can also induce and manipulate shared dreams themselves.
So if they wanted to, say, induce a dream making someone think they're out of their body, present themselves as some brightly glowing deity, inject some generic love and light feeling into them. Claim that the person is some super special servant of their's and that they need to go tell everyone they've ever met that the end of the world is coming and they need to adopt a cat in order to ascend, inject some extra feelings to make the person "understand" the "truth" of the message if necessary, I'm pretty confident the average spiritualist would fall for it.
However I seriously doubt they'd care enough to put the effort in to do it. Their major gripe would be me doing a test because I'm insecure and paranoid about whether or not things like magic, spirits and the like are even real which at this stage isn't why I'd be doing it. But it's understandable that they'd assume that's what was going on. I also don't think they'd do it because if they did we would all probably disown and kill them for it and they know it. Still, I believe it's important to mention, just in case.
Hell according to them trying to learn telekinesis is a waste of time. They'd all much rather I work on "popping out" (obe'ing) so I can just leave my body and come back as a ghost if I felt I needed to and I don't want to do that. But the history of that debate is for another thread.
Well that gets the reasons I wouldn't want to do a trial out of the way. Now for what one would look like if/when I did.
Based on my current skill level there would, unfortunately, be a lot of complicating factors to manage. I haven't purposely tried inducing a dream for almost a year now so I'm probably rusty too.
The first and largest factor is time dialation, a term I'm probably using wrong but it's what we've called it this whole time and I'm not changing it. Basically, when I induce a dream the receiver doesn't necessarily get it in real time. Instead both of us may get our "parts" days, weeks, or even months apart from each other. All evidence points to my emotional issues being the cause and fixing them is the main focus of the current (and probably final) part of my training.
Usually how this works is I will lay down and do something I call a "search projection." it takes the form of the emotional declaration "find the next instance of X." Or more formally:
{[METHOD], [TYPE], [TARGET (1,...n)]}.
Methods - (find, make, allow, etc)
Types - (one, next, path, etc)
Targets - (plane, person, location, event, etc)
It can get a lot more complicated than this with conditionals and whatnot but I haven't gone too deep with those yet since they're a bit of a mental overload.
For example, "find the next time I have a shared dream with Dreamsoap where we are playing a virtual reality game" or "find me the next time I poltergeist to the backyard of my family's house." then I wait, eventually various bits of random data start to form in my mind, I let them coalesce and order themselves, visuals and other sensory data start to appear and form, and I get progressively more sucked in to the projection. During this energy is sucked out of my body to fuel the process, generally from the chest and head. Thus the effectiveness of the entire process is dependant on how much energy I have avaliable at the time and what my flow rate is. This also limits the length of a projection since the constant drain eventually makes it impossible to maintain a connection. Either because I run out or because I start to burn the body's wiring out. Burning the wiring reduces flow rate meaning I have to push harder to get the flow I was getting before, which burns the wiring faster. Eventually further energy use is too difficult and physically painful to maintain even if my energy is full. Which means that I can't do anything at all for sometimes over a week or two while I recover.
I kid you not the easiest way to think about what I'm talking about is mana in a videogame. You have a pool of some size, it takes a certain amount to do something, or drains a certain amount per period of time to maintain something, and when you run out then you can't do anything anymore. There's a few extra bits like flow rate and energy pressure which is identical to the concept of how compressed air behaves, or voltage for that matter. And burning out wiring is no different than working a muscle out and that muscle being sore and useless for a few days until it builds back stronger than it was before.
On my end I will have an entire projection. And when the receiver gets their part they will also have the same entire experience from their perspective. Even though days may have passed since I witnessed it all. My theory is that the dreamscape gets created as its own virtual timespace that both of us can independently connect to regardless of our relative timespace location. Think of it like how two people can play an online game together. They're in two totally different physical locations but connect to a single shared virtual location and have a single shared experience. It doesn't matter how their "real" locations change, the virtual location is where the experience is happening. The difference is that the games virtual location shares the same time as the players real locations. In the shared dream case it looks like the same process but the time component is virtual as well, making it not matter bother when and where the individual experiences connect from.
But as anyone who has spent any time gaming can tell you, just because you can connect to any server doesn't mean you should. The further away a server is from you, the more relays your inputs have to pass through to get to and from it. Which means more time. And when you have many different people connecting to the same server from many different distances there's going to be some data syncing issues where the people with faster connections have to wait for the people with slower connections to get the same updates that they have.. Aka "lag." technically latency but whatever.
Worse, even if two players have the same connection speed but that speed is very slow because they're both very far away. They may not have to wait for each other to catch up but they certainly need to wait for the server to dole out the updates. Making fast paced games impossible to play.
The standard rule of thumb is that the closer you are to the other players the smoother and faster the game will run. With the best experience being a Lan party with everyone's stuff directly plugged into each other.
Likewise with shared dreams the closer the better. Not physically, not temporally, but emotionally. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who's remotely aware of research done into psi. The link between emotional closeness and psychic effectiveness has been long established.
The lag that gets created in my case is a composite of spatial and temporal components. An event cannot be both spatially and temporally close to me at the same time. It needs to be far enough away that my mind doesn't think I'm even doing it or that it never happened. The more emotional distance I put between me an the effect the more chance of it being disrupted and not happening at all.
Worse, this isn't just a one way process, the receivers mental/emotional makeup will affect their ability to recieve the dream for all the same reasons.
To combat this for the sake of an experiment the only thing I can think of is to write up an entire projection as soon as I can after doing one, encrypt it so the other person can't read it, post it on here, and get them to do the same. They write up any dream or dream segment they think might've been induced for however long they think they need to and then when they think there might be a hit both files get decrypted for public viewing and scrutiny.
Obviously this would be a very cumbersome, wasteful process and largely why I don't think it's worth it to try right now. The options are attempt to do a time restricted experiment where I write one attempt and the receiver writes one dream, which will fail. Or do a long drawn out bunch of attempts with lots and lots of writing that then has to be sifted through to find probably one to three hits per month of trials. Obviously such a result would do nothing to convince anyone of anything and waste time and effort I could've been spending on real training that I actually care about. Unless someone has a better idea.
As for the general content of the dreams I would absolutely love to take people to bits of the spirit plane that I know of, especially tournaments. I think it would be really fun and maybe they'd learn something from it. Dangers may include actual physical injury and death or worse via the Kruger effect but I think the chances of running into any trouble would be pretty remote. I'm not going to drag some newbie up there and go adventuring in the wilderness with them. It's just something I should probably mention just in case.
Search projections are easily the most effective method of inducing anything I've developed to date and their basic form is recycled into all the training I do because of it. A lot of work went into its development and I'm very proud of it.
I hope this explains my reasoning of why I don't want to do a trial right now. I do think it would be good to do in the future as a means to help with my other training. It would help normalize the idea of magic in my mind. But I'm not at that point yet. Hopefully this writeup helped someone and wasn't too rambly. Ask whatever you want and I'll do my best to answer.
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I'm was asked quite awhile ago on skeptiko, more than once, if I would be willing to attempt inducing a shared dream with someone on the forums as an experiment. I don't really want to yet and I'll try explaining why. I also want to detail my idea of how such an experiment would go and possible complications and dangers of doing one.
My main reason for not wanting to do an experiment is that inducing shared dreams and other projection/OBE related skills are not the focus of my training. Telekinesis and other immediately local direct effects are. So there's very little for me to gain by putting my time and energy, figuratively and literally, into doing such an experiment.
Even if the experiment succeeded it probably wouldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. I mean I already know that I can induce shared dreams and how I do it. It would only go to maybe, but probably not, convince one or more other people that I can induce shared dreams. And to be honest there's a lot of reasons that I'd rather there not be concrete proof of that ability out on the Internet. At least right now I can talk about it and probably get dismissed as "just another dumb religious hippy high on something" by the mainstream and others.
Some people may not understand why someone would not want to be known as the guy who can induce shared dreams in people, poltergeist to remote locations, etc and that's Ok. I do, and that's all that matters. Even though the chances of getting recognition let alone anything bad happening are very remote I'm still not comfortable with it.
I do have plans to do public demonstrations of telekinesis and the like when I have a level of skill that I'm comfortable with. But I doubt that will be happening anytime within the next five years. Both because I don't know how long it will take me to get the amount of ability that I deem "safe" to demonstrate but also because the moment I finally get it I'm taking a nice long vacation to destress from all the crazy.
The last reason I don't really think it's a great idea to do such an experiment is one spirit both Dreamsoap and I know who will remain unnamed. When I first started writing this I did use their name. Or at least I used their colour coded pseudonym, but it started to feel like I was just singling them out and insulting them after awhile. On that note I never use spirits real names when I talk about them on here. Giving out their real names is a douchey breach of privacy and personal trust.
They can also help anyone with half decent skill find/contact them and they have no desire to interact with random people they don't know or care about. Granted they can do a lot better job hiding/protecting themselves than I can since using pseudonyms is pretty much the psychic equivalent of WEP encryption on a router. But it's something I can do that will help, even if it's just a little, so I do it.
Anyways, the whole issue with them needs a bit of explanation so here's the semi short version. These people have been attempting to prove their own existence among other things to me since about 2009. They eventually cobbled enough evidence together over time to prove that they exist and aren't just things I'm imagining. They've been less successful on the "other things" though. Namely because it's a claim that we all knew each other in past lives. Which on its own is fine. But the nature of said lives is pretty far from the average reincarnation report and sounds incredibly fantastical on the surface even though nothing about it actually is. Nor does any of it seem impossible. My major issue with it is that I don't see how "I" could have been a part of it. I don't see how "I" could have had the personality necessary to live that way.
It's not that they don't have evidence or that their evidence isn't compelling it's that my ability to properly verify most of it is non existent. And so I repeatedly throw it out, explain it away, or generally don't believe it. But usually not before half believing it for a bit then flip flopping because maybe there might be some other explanation I'm not aware of. It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to determine whether any individual projection is real or not and thus nearly impossible to tell what things I've heard are actually things they've told me or just my own imagination.
This is a major frustration for them, especially the flip flopping, fights have happened over it. Some of those fights physically injured me. Which itself acted as pretty compelling evidence that they existed. These days I'm getting to around 99% convinced that the "other stuff" is also true. Because of the sheer amount of frustration all of this has caused them, they are done listening to anything that remotely sounds like me having doubts about things like whether magic is real or not. They are also very unsupportive of anything that isn't about me working on "coming home" which is a whole other thing I'll have to go into some other time. Anyways, when I brought up the topic of inducing dreams with random people to get myself more data to show that I can indeed induce shared dreams they were less than excited about it. In short they think it's a waste of time and I shouldn't do it. But if I do it anyways they don't want to be involved and have no interest meeting or talking to random people down here.
One person in particular went quite a bit further with it. They threatened that if I waste my time doing shared dreams with random people, they will go to those people and/or people related to them, radicalize them into a cult worshiping them, and then... I guess... bad things happen? I don't really know, they never really elaborated much past the cult part. Originally it started as just a joke, like, "ha ha, wouldn't it be funny if I told the random guy you brought up that I was a God(dess) and they believed me?" and then it became this thing they'd jokingly remind me of any time I talked about the pros and cons of doing shared dreams with other people. Until it just became an overt threat.
And it's something they could do too. Both Dreamsoap and I know firsthand that they can inject emotions into a person. Making you feel whatever they want you to feel. One way this was used In our case was as a tranquilizer to calm us down during a couple high stress situations. It's not an ability unique to them or anything. They can certainly poltergeist if they really feel like it as well. Pretty much never do these days and even when they did they typically used me as a conduit to make it easier for them. I'm sure I'll have to explain how all that works too but not now. But if they really wanted to they could certainly do it. They can also induce and manipulate shared dreams themselves.
So if they wanted to, say, induce a dream making someone think they're out of their body, present themselves as some brightly glowing deity, inject some generic love and light feeling into them. Claim that the person is some super special servant of their's and that they need to go tell everyone they've ever met that the end of the world is coming and they need to adopt a cat in order to ascend, inject some extra feelings to make the person "understand" the "truth" of the message if necessary, I'm pretty confident the average spiritualist would fall for it.
However I seriously doubt they'd care enough to put the effort in to do it. Their major gripe would be me doing a test because I'm insecure and paranoid about whether or not things like magic, spirits and the like are even real which at this stage isn't why I'd be doing it. But it's understandable that they'd assume that's what was going on. I also don't think they'd do it because if they did we would all probably disown and kill them for it and they know it. Still, I believe it's important to mention, just in case.
Hell according to them trying to learn telekinesis is a waste of time. They'd all much rather I work on "popping out" (obe'ing) so I can just leave my body and come back as a ghost if I felt I needed to and I don't want to do that. But the history of that debate is for another thread.
Well that gets the reasons I wouldn't want to do a trial out of the way. Now for what one would look like if/when I did.
Based on my current skill level there would, unfortunately, be a lot of complicating factors to manage. I haven't purposely tried inducing a dream for almost a year now so I'm probably rusty too.
The first and largest factor is time dialation, a term I'm probably using wrong but it's what we've called it this whole time and I'm not changing it. Basically, when I induce a dream the receiver doesn't necessarily get it in real time. Instead both of us may get our "parts" days, weeks, or even months apart from each other. All evidence points to my emotional issues being the cause and fixing them is the main focus of the current (and probably final) part of my training.
Usually how this works is I will lay down and do something I call a "search projection." it takes the form of the emotional declaration "find the next instance of X." Or more formally:
{[METHOD], [TYPE], [TARGET (1,...n)]}.
Methods - (find, make, allow, etc)
Types - (one, next, path, etc)
Targets - (plane, person, location, event, etc)
It can get a lot more complicated than this with conditionals and whatnot but I haven't gone too deep with those yet since they're a bit of a mental overload.
For example, "find the next time I have a shared dream with Dreamsoap where we are playing a virtual reality game" or "find me the next time I poltergeist to the backyard of my family's house." then I wait, eventually various bits of random data start to form in my mind, I let them coalesce and order themselves, visuals and other sensory data start to appear and form, and I get progressively more sucked in to the projection. During this energy is sucked out of my body to fuel the process, generally from the chest and head. Thus the effectiveness of the entire process is dependant on how much energy I have avaliable at the time and what my flow rate is. This also limits the length of a projection since the constant drain eventually makes it impossible to maintain a connection. Either because I run out or because I start to burn the body's wiring out. Burning the wiring reduces flow rate meaning I have to push harder to get the flow I was getting before, which burns the wiring faster. Eventually further energy use is too difficult and physically painful to maintain even if my energy is full. Which means that I can't do anything at all for sometimes over a week or two while I recover.
I kid you not the easiest way to think about what I'm talking about is mana in a videogame. You have a pool of some size, it takes a certain amount to do something, or drains a certain amount per period of time to maintain something, and when you run out then you can't do anything anymore. There's a few extra bits like flow rate and energy pressure which is identical to the concept of how compressed air behaves, or voltage for that matter. And burning out wiring is no different than working a muscle out and that muscle being sore and useless for a few days until it builds back stronger than it was before.
On my end I will have an entire projection. And when the receiver gets their part they will also have the same entire experience from their perspective. Even though days may have passed since I witnessed it all. My theory is that the dreamscape gets created as its own virtual timespace that both of us can independently connect to regardless of our relative timespace location. Think of it like how two people can play an online game together. They're in two totally different physical locations but connect to a single shared virtual location and have a single shared experience. It doesn't matter how their "real" locations change, the virtual location is where the experience is happening. The difference is that the games virtual location shares the same time as the players real locations. In the shared dream case it looks like the same process but the time component is virtual as well, making it not matter bother when and where the individual experiences connect from.
But as anyone who has spent any time gaming can tell you, just because you can connect to any server doesn't mean you should. The further away a server is from you, the more relays your inputs have to pass through to get to and from it. Which means more time. And when you have many different people connecting to the same server from many different distances there's going to be some data syncing issues where the people with faster connections have to wait for the people with slower connections to get the same updates that they have.. Aka "lag." technically latency but whatever.
Worse, even if two players have the same connection speed but that speed is very slow because they're both very far away. They may not have to wait for each other to catch up but they certainly need to wait for the server to dole out the updates. Making fast paced games impossible to play.
The standard rule of thumb is that the closer you are to the other players the smoother and faster the game will run. With the best experience being a Lan party with everyone's stuff directly plugged into each other.
Likewise with shared dreams the closer the better. Not physically, not temporally, but emotionally. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who's remotely aware of research done into psi. The link between emotional closeness and psychic effectiveness has been long established.
The lag that gets created in my case is a composite of spatial and temporal components. An event cannot be both spatially and temporally close to me at the same time. It needs to be far enough away that my mind doesn't think I'm even doing it or that it never happened. The more emotional distance I put between me an the effect the more chance of it being disrupted and not happening at all.
Worse, this isn't just a one way process, the receivers mental/emotional makeup will affect their ability to recieve the dream for all the same reasons.
To combat this for the sake of an experiment the only thing I can think of is to write up an entire projection as soon as I can after doing one, encrypt it so the other person can't read it, post it on here, and get them to do the same. They write up any dream or dream segment they think might've been induced for however long they think they need to and then when they think there might be a hit both files get decrypted for public viewing and scrutiny.
Obviously this would be a very cumbersome, wasteful process and largely why I don't think it's worth it to try right now. The options are attempt to do a time restricted experiment where I write one attempt and the receiver writes one dream, which will fail. Or do a long drawn out bunch of attempts with lots and lots of writing that then has to be sifted through to find probably one to three hits per month of trials. Obviously such a result would do nothing to convince anyone of anything and waste time and effort I could've been spending on real training that I actually care about. Unless someone has a better idea.
As for the general content of the dreams I would absolutely love to take people to bits of the spirit plane that I know of, especially tournaments. I think it would be really fun and maybe they'd learn something from it. Dangers may include actual physical injury and death or worse via the Kruger effect but I think the chances of running into any trouble would be pretty remote. I'm not going to drag some newbie up there and go adventuring in the wilderness with them. It's just something I should probably mention just in case.
Search projections are easily the most effective method of inducing anything I've developed to date and their basic form is recycled into all the training I do because of it. A lot of work went into its development and I'm very proud of it.
I hope this explains my reasoning of why I don't want to do a trial right now. I do think it would be good to do in the future as a means to help with my other training. It would help normalize the idea of magic in my mind. But I'm not at that point yet. Hopefully this writeup helped someone and wasn't too rambly. Ask whatever you want and I'll do my best to answer.
"The cure for bad information is more information."
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