Meat diets vs. vegetarianism

You have more patience than me Laird!

  With regards veganism during pregnancy, check out any of unnatural vegan's youtube videos.  She has had at least one healthy child while pregnant and I believe she is pregnant again now.  The World Health Organization has declared that veganism is suitable for all stages of life.  I don't have a direct link but both unnatural vegan and Ryan from Happy Healthy vegan (who frequently shows his blood test results demonstrating that he is not nutritionally deficient) have pointed this out and show the appropriate page on their videos.

[Laird]

With regards veganism during pregnancy, check out any of unnatural vegan's youtube videos.

I've said it before but Unnatural Vegan (despite that she's one of those dreaded atheist-skeptic types!) is perhaps my favourite vegan YouTuber. Haven't watched any of her vids for a while now though. Maybe it's time to catch up on some of what I've missed...

I've said it before but Unnatural Vegan (despite that she's one of those dreaded atheist-skeptic types!) is perhaps my favourite vegan YouTuber.  Haven't watched any of her vids for a while now though. Maybe it's time to catch up on some of what I've missed...

Yeah, she's very careful with science and isn't so prone to idealizing.  Although she is an atheist, she did a pretty good open minded video called, "Bad Science, Bad Theology."  Worth a look if you haven't seen it already.

Dear All,
 
I have a request - for those who may wish to accept it!
 
I've been a "lacto-vegeterian" for 27-28 years (since aged about 13). About 5 years I added eggs to my diet from a UK company called "Happy Eggs" (what sold me was they apparently...at least years ago....had cameras pointing at where the hens were kept, and apparently they "play" a lot, hence "happy eggs"......!).
 
Before the request - a quick rebuttal to those who claim a veggie/vegan lifestyle is unhealthy. First of all, every human being is different, and they will potentially react to different diets in different ways. This is a common sense fact which any discussions should keep in mind imo? That said, I have known hundreds of vegetarians and vegans in my life, and generally speaking I find the generalised argument that veggies or vegans are relatively unhealthy compared to non-veggies/vegans to be based on specious, biased & generally uninformed/ignorant reasoning. I have been working out regularly for almost the entire 27 years I’ve been veg, including HIIT and heavy weight training etc. Further, at aged almost 41 I would challenge any meat-eater to any kind of fitness test, sport etc. Even as a (now ex) smoker, at aged 41, I can literally run rings around 20 something young guys who’ve never smoked whilst playing football. And I do mean literally. I’ve seen this evidenced over the past 27 years on numerous occasions with numerous different people. That said, I am aware of all the dietary requirements (Vit Bs – sub-lingual for better absorbtion – general multi vits, Omega oils, Zinc etc), eat a very healthy diet generally and work out several times a week, which isn’t necessarily the case with all veggies/vegans, especially those  who are veg for cultural or religious reasons (people from the Indian sub-continent for eg.).
 
Anyway, point/request is this – over the past 10 or so years I have become more aware of the ethical arguments for not consuming milk & cheese……two food items which are huge in my current lifestyle!! Out of concern for the trouble it would cause to stop (ie. cowardice), I have strenuously avoided this information! In the culture I grew up, eating cheese or milk is not un-compassionate as in India these products are, or at least historically were, produced with little to no suffering for the cows involved.
 
But I feel I should face up to the reality and make a more informed decision, even if it may cause me personal inconvenience. So the request is this – what documentary or book or article would you suggest I read to get a better understanding of the ethical implications/impact of the milk, cheese (and “happy eggs”?) that I consume here in the UK?
 
This is a genuine request, and if I am convinced of any significant suffering that is caused to the animals, I will certainly very strongly consider stopping these products?
 
Caveat – I happen to think that all existence (on this planet at least!) is suffering to some extent, and that we all live within a vast inter-connected web of perpetual suffering that it is impossible to escape. From the fuel in our cars and homes, to the clothes on our back, to the food we eat, to the products we consume…..we are, imo, causing suffering somewhere with all of these actions. In view of this, I think it is worth having some sense of proportion and not make this a fundamentalist religion/dogma type thing. We cannot escape the web, all we can do is try and minimise our impact on the suffering in the world whilst being aware it cannot be eliminated completely, minimise our karmic-carbon-footprint so to speak!. Ie., I would never allow myself to starve to death if there is a cheese sandwhich in the fridge J
 
Anyway – any video links or books or articles to help persuade me to go vegan from veggie would be much appreciated, thanks!
 
PS – sorry for the long winded message, I do go on don’t I
 
Cheers,

Manjit

There is no need to kill for food.

Do you really believe this is true Laird? If we are being strict about this then doesn’t eating fruit & vegetables mean that they too must ‘die’?
I must reveal that I’m a vegetarian mostly. The reason for that is exactly that I feel deeply that  we don’t properly have respect for animals, and are hypocrites. We don’t think anything of sitting down to a meal of roast beef, while really loving our pet dog.

[Laird]

Thanks for your very reasonable and polite request, manjit.

I originally learnt about the suffering in the egg and dairy industries through Peter Singer's book, Animal Liberation. It was ghastly to read the chapters where he laid out the facts. I'm not such a fan of his utilitarian approach, but the facts are independent of the moral philosophy within which he contextualises them.

Various documentaries which, from memory (I haven't watched them in full recently) cover these issues in some (horrifying) depth include:

• Earthlings (can be watched for free via that official link).
  
• Speciesism, the movie (can be rented for 24 hours for USD 2.76).
  

Various speeches which in part cover these issues (typically with damning footage), and which I've bookmarked after finding them compelling, include:

• The Best Speech You Will Ever Hear - Gary Yourofsky (sounds hyperbolic but I'm not so sure that the title isn't justified. Can be watched for free - link is to YouTube).
  
  
  
• 101 Reasons to Go Vegan (can be watched for free - link is to YouTube).
  
  
  
• The Extremism Of Veganism by Emily of Bite Size Vegan (can be watched for free - link is to YouTube).
  
  
  
• Melanie Joy - Carnism: The Psychology of Eating Meat (can be watched for free - link is to YouTube).
  
  
  

Regarding "happy eggs", you might find the brief article The Dark Side of “Happy Eggs” informative.

Even if "happy egg" hens are provided with the very best of living conditions, they (1) have still been bred into producing many more eggs than they would naturally have produced, (2) are still being kept captive, and (3) are still having their eggs stolen from them, on which, you might find the article A Hen’s Relationship with her Eggs informative.

Yes, almost everything we purchase is at least ethically dubious and often has some form of suffering built in, but some of the most ethically dubious products are easy to avoid: veganism doesn't take courage, it just takes a wake-up call... followed by a basic commitment - after that, it's easy!

[Laird]

There is no need to kill for food.

Do you really believe this is true Laird? If we are being strict about this then doesn’t eating fruit & vegetables mean that they too must ‘die’?

I think it's true to the extent that we can consider fruit by the botanical definition^[1] to be (exclusively) one of the following:

• Possessed of the potential for life but not actually alive yet. This covers the case of nuts, seeds, grains, etc, which are dormant (and thus possessed of the potential for life) until planted or watered, at which point they begin to actually live.
  
• Living only as a dependent of their "parent" - the plant upon which they were grown - and, having separated from that parent plant, then dying naturally and by design, and not because anybody or anything has killed them. This covers the case of culinary and "vegetable" fruits.
  

I maintain that consuming food which meets this definition doesn't require killing, and it's why I eat and advocate for this diet.

Of course, unless you grow your own food or have access to produce from stock-free or veganic farms, then in reality it's likely that pesticides have been used to kill animals/plants which would have competed with us for the produce.

I also add the caveats that in setting up farms in the first place, often land has to be cleared, which typically involves killing plants, and that unless special measures are taken such as laying down weed matting to avoid the need for it, often weeds are killed in maintaining the productivity of agricultural land.

[1] I include in this definition anything that detaches naturally from a plant without harming the plant, so, on top of the well-known culinary fruit (apples, oranges, etc), it includes the "vegetable fruits" (zucchinis, capsicums, pumpkins, etc), as well as nuts, seeds, grains, beans, and legumes.

I must reveal that I’m a vegetarian mostly. The reason for that is exactly that I feel deeply that  we don’t properly have respect for animals, and are hypocrites. We don’t think anything of sitting down to a meal of roast beef, while really loving our pet dog.

Exactly! The speech by Melanie Joy to which I linked above in my response to manjit, Carnism: The Psychology of Eating Meat, might resonate with you - she makes that exact point and elaborates on it in a way that I think you'll appreciate.

[Laird]

Regarding "happy eggs", you might find the brief article The Dark Side of “Happy Eggs” informative.

I know that the company mentioned in that article (which contains general information too) is not the same one from which you are buying, manjit: it is US-based whereas yours is UK-based. I've just found an article on what I presume is the same UK-based company from which you purchase your eggs which might also be of interest.

Firm behind Happy Egg Co 'also keeps 4.3m hens in cages where they only have the floorspace of a piece of A4 paper to themselves for its Big & Fresh range'

Thanks for your quick and detailed response Laird, it's much appreciated!
I will work my way through all your links over the next several weeks and do the ruminating required. I shall surely come back to update you with the outcome......

Thank you again!!

Hi Steve - I hope you are keeping well! You wrote: "The reason for that is exactly that I feel deeply that  we don’t properly have respect for animals, and are hypocrites."

Quite agreed! Nearly all of my friends and family are meat eaters. I don't ever discuss the morality or ethics of eating meat with anyone, but I have found a lot of my friends without any prompting or mention or anything from me, attempt to "defend" or "excuse" their meat eating, usually with a "I don't eat much meat" in there somewhere  

I always find this quite amusing, as no part of me is judging them......it is a battle with their own conscience projected onto the vegeterian in the room 

When push comes to shove, my view is not that eating meat is inhumane, uncompassionate, unspiritual or a "sin" or whatever, but that it is done mindlessly and without awareness, as I believe your comment is hinting at too.

Basically, I do not consider a shaman in the amazon rainforest hunting and eating meat to be "inhumane", "unspiritual", lost touch with "nature" or "sinful" etc......because the shaman has profound awareness of what he is doing, that he has killed an animal (may even thank the animal's "spirit"), of both his and the animal's place in the circle of life, the effect on the environment etc

Basically, what I find more offensive than meat eating per se, is the emphasis on cheap, mass produced, packaged and sanitised in plastic "meat" as purely a consumerist "product" with no connection in one's awareness to the circle of nature it came from, that it is a living conscious being's body that has been killed and eaten for one's sustenance, and the lack of awareness & respect for that circle of life.

Etc etc.

Anyway, that's enough from me for a while!

Thanks again Laird, I will chew over this information over the next few weeks

Thanks for your quick and detailed response Laird, it's much appreciated!
I will work my way through all your links over the next several weeks and do the ruminating required. I shall surely come back to update you with the outcome......

Thank you again!!

Hi Steve - I hope you are keeping well! You wrote: "The reason for that is exactly that I feel deeply that  we don’t properly have respect for animals, and are hypocrites."

Quite agreed! Nearly all of my friends and family are meat eaters. I don't ever discuss the morality or ethics of eating meat with anyone, but I have found a lot of my friends without any prompting or mention or anything from me, attempt to "defend" or "excuse" their meat eating, usually with a "I don't eat much meat" in there somewhere  

I always find this quite amusing, as no part of me is judging them......it is a battle with their own conscience projected onto the vegeterian in the room 

When push comes to shove, my view is not that eating meat is inhumane, uncompassionate, unspiritual or a "sin" or whatever, but that it is done mindlessly and without awareness, as I believe your comment is hinting at too.

Basically, I do not consider a shaman in the amazon rainforest hunting and eating meat to be "inhumane", "unspiritual", lost touch with "nature" or "sinful" etc......because the shaman has profound awareness of what he is doing, that he has killed an animal (may even thank the animal's "spirit"), of both his and the animal's place in the circle of life, the effect on the environment etc

Basically, what I find more offensive than meat eating per se, is the emphasis on cheap, mass produced, packaged and sanitised in plastic "meat" as purely a consumerist "product" with no connection in one's awareness to the circle of nature it came from, that it is a living conscious being's body that has been killed and eaten for one's sustenance, and the lack of awareness & respect for that circle of life.

Etc etc.

Anyway, that's enough from me for a while!

Thanks again Laird, I will chew over this information over the next few weeks

Thank you for this most thoughtful post Manjit. I feel like you almost get me better than I get myself!

I will now do the same as the members of your family, and defend my own habits ‘unnecessarily’. Who am I fooling? Your words cut to my heart when you wrote “usually with a ‘I don’t eat much meat’ in there somewhere”. You’re a vicious man!

Like Tom Campbell I will eat meat (relatively) free of guilt under some circumstances. I live with two meat eaters, and when something like pepparoni pizza is left in the fridge, likely to be thrown away, I’d rather eat it than see it go to waste. If we are eating with friends and they have not cooked a non-meat dish I will not say anything and eat what they put in front of me. Some take my being a vegetarian more seriously than others.

I eat lots of prawns. I fully expect the being that accompanies me watching my life review to be a man sized prawn. I reckon I’m the prawn nemesis, their worst nightmare, their Blofeld Bond villain! I jest, but my guilt is unmistakeable.

It is very tricky to prepare vegetables with one working hand, and to expect others to do it isn’t fair. Eithne has a head full of things to do that she feels are like lead chores that weigh her down, and Maeve thinks that food is something that magically appears whenever she is hungry. It’s one of our failures as parents. Boy, is she in for a shock when she goes to Uni!

Am I doing my best? Probably. Is it that good? If I’m being critical then no, it’s not. If I’m being like nearly all other humans, then I will cut myself some slack and say that I’m doing okay.

If my books had turned out to be best sellers and I could afford it, I would probably have vegan meals delivered by Long wheel base BMW or Mercedes from top London restaurants twice a day. Alas, very sadly, it wasn’t to be. (Thank God)

The bigger picture is an interesting one. You are basically correct when you wrote about me ‘hinting at’ how I see things. As is often the case with things, they tend to come in shades of grey. Could I live without eating meat or prawns? Yes. But it would probably lead to me being a pain in the arse for others and may be too expensive also. So, I compromise. Is this wrong? Maybe so, I just don’t know.

What I am guilty of, is not often being fully grateful for the beings that gave their lives so that I may live. I will try to be more aware of this from now on and say a proper thanks. Thanks to all for reminding me.

I will leave you once more with some wisdom from Kahlil Gibran, a man that really knew his shit!

http://wyzend.com/prophet/prophet_06_01.php


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