A Question for brainy people!?

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I would say there are no absolutely correct answers to subjective questions, for example : What is the best car ever produced? 

What is the opposite of ‘subjective’ in this context. 

‘Objective’ doesn’t really work imo.
ob•jec•tive əb-jĕk′tĭv
  • adj.
    Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.


  • adj.
    Based on observable phenomena; empirical.



There is an answer which (almost?) everyone would agree is ‘true’ to maths or physics questions like 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc2

What word defines this sort of thing?
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(This post was last modified: 2020-06-19, 12:43 PM by Stan Woolley.)
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(2020-06-19, 12:43 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: There is an answer which (almost?) everyone would agree is ‘true’ to maths or physics questions like 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc2

What word defines this sort of thing?
I'd say that 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc² are in different categories. The first, in the realm of mathematics follows from the set of rules which are agreed upon, by definition. The second, in the realm of physics depends upon observation of the material world in which we live and comparison of the observations with a mathematical model. As such, it isn't true by definition like the first, but is only represents the current understanding of the world.

That doesn't answer your question, but perhaps indicates a need to clarify something.
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(2020-06-19, 01:37 PM)Typoz Wrote: I'd say that 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc² are in different categories. The first, in the realm of mathematics follows from the set of rules which are agreed upon, by definition. The second, in the realm of physics depends upon observation of the material world in which we live and comparison of the observations with a mathematical model. As such, it isn't true by definition like the first, but is only represents the current understanding of the world.

That doesn't answer your question, but perhaps indicates a need to clarify something.

So do you think there is only maths which can be put in the pure ‘truth’ category? Or are there more ?

These may well be stupid questions btw!  Huh Smile
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(2020-06-19, 12:43 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: I would say there are no absolutely correct answers to subjective questions, for example : What is the best car ever produced? 

What is the opposite of ‘subjective’ in this context. 

‘Objective’ doesn’t really work imo.
ob•jec•tive əb-jĕk′tĭv
  • adj.
    Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.


  • adj.
    Based on observable phenomena; empirical.



There is an answer which (almost?) everyone would agree is ‘true’ to maths or physics questions like 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc2

What word defines this sort of thing?
Ecological Psychology would say the condition of being independent of mind is just an abstraction and all living environments have interacting minds and joint probabilities.  An real world environment is teeming with communication and bio-information processing.  

Other worldviews would seemingly also reject a state of independence for mind, as well.  Idealism, Panpyschism, etc....

Subjective information is that which has been formatted in the viewpoint of an individual agent.  The background for generated mental states and behavior is therefore conditioned by the agent's mental state.

Raw data - free from any framework of analysis could be the opposite of agent contingent conceptualization.
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(2020-06-19, 01:52 PM)stephenw Wrote: Ecological Psychology would say the condition of being independent of mind is just an abstraction and all living environments have interacting minds and joint probabilities.  An real world environment is teeming with communication and bio-information processing.  

Other worldviews would seemingly also reject a state of independence for mind, as well.  Idealism, Panpyschism, etc....

Subjective information is that which has been formatted in the viewpoint of an individual agent.  The background for generated mental states and behavior is therefore conditioned by the agent's mental state.

Raw data - free from any framework of analysis could be the opposite of agent contingent conceptualization.

This will need a bit of deciphering (thinking about) Stephen!  Big Grin

Good stuff though - Raw data...mmm
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I think there's a sense of "objective" that you've left out of those definitions, Steve. Checking around a few dictionaries, I find entries like these:

Lexico:
Quote:(of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
‘historians try to be objective and impartial’
Contrasted with subjective

dictionary.com:
Quote:not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

Merriam-Webster:
Quote:expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Don't those reflect the sort of sense you intend?

If you want an alternative word though, then how about simply "factual"? Or a tautological combo to redundantly really show 'em what you mean: "objectively factual" (or "factually objective")?
(This post was last modified: 2020-06-19, 03:06 PM by Laird.)
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P.S. Re the distinction Typoz rightly makes, there are "logical truths", also known as "necessary truths", which are truths that are true "in every (logically) possible world" - like 2+2=4, or like the statement that a bachelor is an unmarried man. Perhaps scientific equations like those of Einstein are better referred to as "empirical facts": not true in every possible world, but true in our actual world.
(This post was last modified: 2020-06-19, 03:14 PM by Laird.)
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(2020-06-19, 02:00 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: This will need a bit of deciphering (thinking about) Stephen!  Big Grin

Good stuff though - Raw data...mmm

Ultimately only one thing can absolutely, certainly, be known to be real: the self as a thinking conscious entity. Courtesy Descartes - "I think therefore I am".

All else, the world, other persons, the apparently objective reality verified from countless scientific observations and experiments, all other things experienced as real even including paranormal phenomena like veridical NDEs and other spiritually transformative visions and enlightenments, and also all else that could even possibly be imagined, in principle could be illusion. 

The ultimate source of doubt for the deep thinker. Maybe better not to think so deep.

More to think on:

The Marcus Arvan-proposed P2P (peer to peer) participatory physical reality simulation concept seems to well explain such mysteries as the ultimate nature of quantum mechanics and its well-verified but mysterious undergirding of our physical reality. 

All of the physics of our world, including Einstein's relativity equations, E = MC^^2, etc. etc. would merely be what was programmed into the P2P simulation.

According to the P2P virtual reality simulation hypothesis absolutely all of our world, the physical reality we experience and observe, is illusory and is basically information computed in some other (higher) reality. We as participators in the cosmic simulation would not be artifacts of the simulation - we would be the users, true conscious sentient thinking entities inhabiting that higher reality.

A spiritual/metaphysical interpretation of this could be that this P2P simulation reality is merely the mechanism by which Spirit creates the playground of experience and limitation and learning for eternal souls. 

Of course, logically, another possibility could be that the higher level P2P simulation world could in turn just be another even higher-level P2P simulation, and so on without end, ad infinitum. The intellect, along with abstract thought, creativity and imagination can get lost in its own ponderings of the possibilities.
(This post was last modified: 2020-06-19, 07:04 PM by nbtruthman.)
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(2020-06-19, 12:43 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: I would say there are no absolutely correct answers to subjective questions, for example : What is the best car ever produced? 

What is the opposite of ‘subjective’ in this context. 

‘Objective’ doesn’t really work imo.
ob•jec•tive əb-jĕk′tĭv
  • adj.
    Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.


  • adj.
    Based on observable phenomena; empirical.



There is an answer which (almost?) everyone would agree is ‘true’ to maths or physics questions like 2 + 2 = 4 or equations like E = mc2

What word defines this sort of thing?


My view is that truth cannot be established apart from purpose which requires choice. So all truth inherently has an objective and subjective component. When you discover patterns you are also choosing to create them by assigning boundaries because it is useful to you.

Math is the structure of structure. Math is the study of pure relationships (or just one or a few relationships at a time) whereas instantiations of structure (real life objects) have an almost infinite number of relationships to choose from.
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