(2018-03-28, 04:14 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I think you are missing the point I was making... it was you who was categorising experiences into real, and unreal. You categorised something as an unreal experience? (Which seemed to suggest you had a method of defining some difference between experiences ?).
I didn't categorize the experiences into real and unreal. I gave a list of various ways in which people might refer to the various experiences which fall in to that inclusive set of experiences from which NDEs (among other things) are drawn. One of the ways people may refer to them is to note that something about them may seem unreal (I even set it apart with quotation marks in my original post). But as I mentioned earlier, they are still real experiences in the sense in which the term "real experience" is used. That is, "real" refers to a number of different definitions, and a negation of one of those definitions doesn't necessary have anything to say about one of the other definitions. This shouldn't be confusing - when somebody says, "Whoa, that was unreal," after they've been on a rollercoaster ride, they don't mean that it didn't really happen.
I was looking for a word which might represent "the inclusive set of experiences from which mainstream researchers and parapsychologists draw" as a sort of shorthand, so I could avoid typing that whole line out over and over again.
Linda
(2018-03-28, 06:01 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah you did, you categorised them as... [blah, blah, blah], and other unreal experiences...
"...I asked for research on whether or not NDEs could be distinguished from "hallucinations, dreams, and other 'unreal' experiences"..."
"...So that doesn't tell us whether NDEs are more memorable than other kinds of emotionally charged 'unreal' experiences (as one potential way to distinguish them)..."
No Max, I did not. I grouped together "the inclusive set of experiences from which mainstream researchers and parapsychologists draw". And one of the words I used to refer to that group was 'unreal', which is used to refer to experiences which are real, but so strange in some way as to not seem real, or experiences which are amazing or fantastic. But these experiences are all clearly a subset of "real experiences" and I specifically stated so several times.
I get that if I said "the sky is blue" you would take issue with it. But we are on the same page here - these are real experiences. There's no point in you arguing over a position which neither of us hold.
Linda
(2018-03-28, 06:25 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]And one of the words I used to refer to that group was 'unreal', which is used to refer to experiences which are real, but so strange in some way as to not seem real, or experiences which are amazing or fantastic.
I think if people are using the word "unreal" to mean "real, but ...", then they need to explain that. Otherwise the effect will be to mislead those who go by standard usage.
Does anyone really not understand the context of Linda's usage?
(2018-03-28, 09:59 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone really not understand the context of Linda's usage?
I think most people here understand
fls's "usage" only too well.
(2018-03-28, 09:59 PM)malf Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone really not understand the context of Linda's usage?
I wrote out the dictionary definition of the word in my
last post, which means, as far as I can tell, that the bulk of English speakers would understand it.
Linda
(2018-03-27, 07:03 PM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I was reminded of this thread after Dante responded to my post about NDEs in the Improbability Principle thread. Desperado and I asked for research on whether or not NDEs could be distinguished from "hallucinations, dreams, and other 'unreal' experiences". I'm not aware of any and no one offered some references (although ridicule is a popular response ).
I'm bumping this thread to ask whether anyone can suggest references for research which has actively looked at this. The closest I can think of is Steven Laureys' study on the quality of memories of NDEs compared to other events (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...e.0057620#). He found that memory of NDEs were more like "flashbulb memories" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashbulb_memory), although he regarded them as flashbulb memories of hallucinations. However, his sample of NDEers seems to have been an unrepresentative sample selected post hoc on the basis of whether the experience was memorable to begin with, rather than a prospective collection. So that doesn't tell us whether NDEs are more memorable than other kinds of emotionally charged 'unreal' experiences (as one potential way to distinguish them), as much as it tells us that experiences selected on the basis of whether they are memorable tend to be more memorable.
Any other suggestions/ideas?
Linda
I posted a study a couple times that found IIRC that the gamma waves in the subjects of NDErs recallng their NDEs were very similar to the gamma waves of subjects recalling their hallucinations. If I’m not wrong the study involved hypnosis as well and the researchers reported being surprised at this result. Searching my posts on Skeptiko should turn it up if that forum hasn’t been deleted. Unfortunately my home was burgled a few weeks ago and my computers with all my saved studies were stolen.
(2018-03-29, 03:38 AM)Arouet Wrote: [ -> ]I posted a study a couple times that found IIRC that the gamma waves in the subjects of NDErs recallng their NDEs were very similar to the gamma waves of subjects recalling their hallucinations.
The recall of both being detected as gamma waves doesn't prove the NDEs are the same as hallucinations, merely that the brain doesn't differentiate between real to non-real experiences, it not knowing about any such differences. Mind can perceive such differences, though, because during an NDE, mind is obviously separated from the inactive brain, going by the majority of accounts which explicitly state there being a separateness from their body, and that their senses during an NDE are more vivid than the usual bodily senses.
(2018-03-29, 01:20 AM)fls Wrote: [ -> ]I wrote out the dictionary definition of the word in my post, which means, as far as I can tell, that the bulk of English speakers would understand it.
Where do you say you quoted the dictionary definition of the word "unreal"?
