Psience Quest

Full Version: To NDE or not to NDE (re-done)
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This to-and-fro about scientific proof of the NDE is, to my mind, pretty pointless. While it is encouraging to have some scientists on board with the concept of an afterlife, I don't believe that science can tell us too much about it. Science demands objective observation and precise repeatability, neither of which you are going to get from an NDE.There may be some significant similarities but the experience is essentially subjective and personal. 

Whether a person is met by Auntie Iris or Jesus is a subjective and personal thing dependent on deeply held beliefs and expectations which determine how such a meeting is interpreted by the personality having the experience. Science can add some clarity to the condition of the physical body at the time of the experience. It can say that these profound experiences happened at a time when, by any scientific measure, no mental experiences should have been taking place. But it can't pronounce on the subjective nature of these experiences. 

Witnesses can also confirm the veridical aspects of the experience - such as out of body observations of things happening or conversations taking place while the subject was immobilised and - by measurable criteria - unconscious. Science doesn't have a theory to accommodate such observations so sceptics will always attempt to fudge one.

The NDE constitutes very important evidence in favour of the afterlife but it is one of many in the entire canon of evidence going back to pre-history. There are accounts in the Tibetan and Egyptian Books of the Dead which correspond closely to modern NDE accounts. There's evidence from mediums. There are anomalous personal experiences in probably every family on earth describing encounters with the dead. There's a wealth of evidence for reincarnation not least of which was the series of meticulous studies done by Ian Stevenson. 

All of this evidence, if approached as individual cases, comprises of a story of a subjective experience with, perhaps, some aspects which might be considered objective and which science can investigate. But in reducing the whole experience to that which science can approach we lose the context and the essence. It becomes fodder for the nit-pickers and there will always be alternative explanations such as delusion, hallucination, coincidence or fraud. But for the skeptics to be right, every single one of those multitude of cases must be assumed to be due to one of those alternatives and that is a huge assumption which is based on an ideology, not science.
(2018-01-18, 04:17 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]As for an afterlife. I don’t think these experiences tell us anything either for, or against there being an afterlife.
 
That doesn't seem to be the case for the people who have actually been dead and come back though, does it. They don't fear death anymore. Why is that ?
(2018-01-18, 08:28 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t really understand the relevance of the points you seem to be making with regards to the OP’s question.

As best as I could understand you seemed to be saying something like...

1) my arguments abut the Greyson scale bias can be set aside...  because OBE’s matter more... and...
2) that [your misrepresentation of] my beliefs, means my arguments should be set aside because... somehow I am arguing in bad faith.

Or something like that...

I didn’t find either very compelling

You don't accept a very crucial element of what the NDErs report actually happened to them, in that you don't accept they were really out of their bodies. Therefore why bother arguing about a scale that contains the question  "were you out of your body" etc ...when you don't accept that. What's the point ?  

How can you say on the one hand that you're concerned that some of the reported elements are not being considered by Greyson's scale and then completely refuse to accept their word when they say they left their bodies ? It's a bit hypocritical, Max.

Without the acceptance of the reality of the out of body experience, the Greyson scale means nothing much.
(2018-01-18, 08:34 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Again, I really don’t understand the point you are trying to make. But I will just point out that some people have had such distressing experiences, that they are absolutely terrified of death.

Or maybe you don't want to answer the question. The answer is they don't fear death because they know it is not annihilation.

And if they have had a negative NDE with an OBE, they are terrified of going back there because they know they were not annihilated after they died.

EDIT :  Max said > some people have had such distressing experiences, that they are absolutely terrified of death.

Why should they be terrified of death when they didn't really die in the first place, according to your ideas?  And if these experiences (NDE's) can tell us nothing about life after death (because as you keep insisting they didn't actually die) ...WHY do they need to be afraid of their actual coming death based on an experience of not actually dying ? It's completely illogical, Max.
(2018-01-20, 07:58 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Possibly the same reason I'm afraid of spiders.

Max, you know  that's just trying to avoid conceding defeat. Let me remind you again, if they didn't really die (as you postulate because they came back) ..the experience that they had (the negative NDE) is nothing to do with real death (as you have said).

Therefore, to base their fears of their approaching final death  on a previous experience of nearly dying (as you would have it) would be illogical. You have stated that the NDE can tell us nothing about death and the afterlife!

Max_B Wrote:  [url=http://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-to-nde-or-not-to-nde-re-done?pid=13529#pid13529][/url]As for an afterlife. I don’t think these experiences tell us anything either for, or against there being an afterlife.

Max, I like you but you're tying yourself up in knots trying to make your theory fit the data and I'm sorry but it doesn't and never will. 

We know very well WHY they are afraid of dying after a negative NDE because they know they really did die.
(2018-01-20, 08:02 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Not that it's particularly relevant to the OP's question, but I think it perfectly reasonable to separate the experience from the mechanics of how it occurs.

Without the OBE being accepted as a real separation of mind and brain then the NDE is reduced to a complex hallucination.
You don't accept that the OBE during NDE is real (a real separation).

Therefore, you are ignoring the most important element on the Greyson scale (because without an OBE the experience must be brain based) yet making a fuss about a few details that don't matter that much. Like I said, you're tying yourself up in knots. Why bother ? Why not put your energy and talent into something else.
(2018-01-20, 11:19 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I don't actually think it's me tying myself up in knots ;-)

Well if that's your response (and the other LOL)  to what I've pointed out to you, then it's clear to me you're wedded to your theory and you are never going to abandon it. 

You haven't dealt with any of my previous points, you're just effectively 'sticking your fingers in your ears' and carrying on regardless. Nice.
To revisit this thread, I was reading about a post where Linda was claiming there are a lot of NDEs that got the details in their OBEs wrong? What is to be thought about this? 

She often references Penny Sartori, who actually I believe took all the OBEs she could find reported, and found that the vast majority of them were dead on accurate. With only a few having "errors"
I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that Sartori said that the OBEs were dead on accurate. She notes many discrepancies between what the patient reported and the actual conditions, among those with OBEs.

Maybe you are thinking of the few OBEers who incorporated details of their resuscitation in their imagery? Those details incorporated into their imagery tended to be accurate (for a loose definition of accurate). But both the OBEers and the non-OBEers were inaccurate when they were queried about conditions which weren't incorporated into their imagery (the hidden targets, for example).

Linda
(2018-03-07, 07:18 AM)Desperado Wrote: [ -> ]To revisit this thread, I was reading about a post where Linda was claiming there are a lot of NDEs that got the details in their OBEs wrong? What is to be thought about this? 

She often references Penny Sartori, who actually I believe took all the OBEs she could find reported, and found that the vast majority of them were dead on accurate. With only a few having "errors"

Not sure whether this is coincidence but my Facebook News this morning has a Skeptiko link to an interview Alex did with Penny. Here's a quote:

Penny Satori Wrote:Yeah. So, it just goes to show that the people who did report the near-death experience, described their experience with accuracy, whereas the control group weren’t accurate, and most of them couldn’t even hazard a guess. So, it just makes you think.

http://skeptiko.com/penny-sartori-are-nd...-love-374/
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