2024-04-07, 05:35 PM
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Whether or not molecular structures (such as those of the H2O molecules I brought up) can be reduced to quantum mechanical phenomena, none of these phenomena, quantum mechanical or chemical/structural/energetical, contain or embody the fundamentally, existentially different qualities of consciousness such as qualia, subjective awareness, thought, etc.
False. It's just an unproven assumption that qualia can't be emergent as well. Your H2O example is only an example of socalled "weak" emergence (the property of wetness), not strong emergence that I'm debatting here.
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]I think the following recent post to you by David001 explains this very well: https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-t...6#pid56886 .
False. David talks about ad-hoc solutions to Schrødingers equation in chemistry.
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Therefore it requires some sort of magic to transform by some sort of strong "emergence" these chemical and quantum mechanical phenomena into consciousness.
False - The whole point in strong emergence is that new properties may not be describable by the properties of it's constituents. Hence no need to use "chemical and quantum mechanical properties" in the description of the emerging properties.
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]And we certainly don't want to invoke magic in these sort of things - after all, magic isn't even supposed to exist, and at the very least also this would violate the Occam's Razor principle of parsimony in a big way.
And the utilization of a 'fictional' spiritual realm does not violate Occam's Razor principle?
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]But the transformation of water molecules in a vapor to liquid water having vastly different physical properties at certain temperatures and pressures can certainly be explained by quantum mechanical and/or chemical/structural/energetical principles and laws. Weak emergence I suppose.
Agree. this example is weak emergence. The concept of weak emergent properties is utilized across various scientific disciplines beyond physics
(2024-04-07, 04:34 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]The key point is that the water vapor molecules and the liquid water are still in the same existential realm of the physical and quantum mechanical, making this not in any way a radical strong emergent transformation of a thing in one existential realm into another thing in an entirely different existential realm.
I don't know why you have vapor in this discussion at all.